JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

You're right. Empirical evidence doesn't really prove anything. In my
area the Tundra is an extremely popular truck for contractors, while the
F150 is more for the person that wants a truck to use as a personal vehicle.

If you read the reviews of the Tundra, it makes a poor personal vehicle.
Look at the Popular Mechanics review. The Tundra with the V8 had the
strongest engine, with the quickest 0-30 (laden with ballast it was
still better than the F150 or the Ram, and the crew cab was the best
for, well, actually carrying a crew. But it got dinged for its
truck-like suspension (well duh, it's actually a truck!). The F150 had a
softer, more car-like suspension because its target market is different.
It was rated the best for handling. It got dinged for the extra deep bed
which made loading more difficult. The engine isn't as powerful so it
was a bit slower as well, but nothing to worry about.

The biggest problem with the Tundra is that not enough buyers are
willing to pay premium for toughness or longevity. Look at how many
older F-150's you see on the road versus older Tundra's. It's not an
exaggeration to say that you could buy one Tundra for every two F150s,
so the upfront savings on the F150 is offset by the longevity of the
Tundra. Actually in the PM test the TOYOTA TUNDRA CREWMAX LIMITED had a
lower MSRP than the FORD F-150 KING RANCH. The difference is that the
F-150 is heavily discounted to well under invoice, while the Tundra is
discounted less.

"Sir F. A. Rien" <jaSPAMc (AT) gbr (DOT) online.com> wrote


I don't see how that information reveals HOW BUYERS USE THEIR TRUCKS. The
category names don't mean a thing in terms of showing who actually uses
trucks for work, or just a family vehicle.

On Oct 19, 7:40*pm, "C. E. White" <cewhite3rem... (AT) mindspring (DOT) com>
wrote:
Havent seen the add, but then I dont believe anything in adds anyway.
I have contractor friends who swear by Tundra's and some who swear at
them.
Every mfgr has lovers and haters.

"Sir F. A. Rien" <jaSPAMc (AT) gbr (DOT) online.com> wrote


Check the latest numbers....

For September 2009 Tundra sales were down 21.3% compared to Sept 2008
(6,308 vs 7,696). For 2009 year to date (end of September) Tundra
sales were down 50.6% (56,599 vs 115, 026). That doesn't seem like the
Tundra is hitting it stride any more....

For September 2009 F Series Sales were UP 3.5 percent campared to Sept
2009 (33,877 vs 32,727). For 2009 year to date (end of September) F
Series sales were down 24.8% (295,426 vs 392,698).

Toyota can spin things any way they want, but the facts are clear -
the Tundra is huge flop. Billion down the tube on an oversized poorly
designed pig of a truck. They took a decent design and turned it into
a bad clone of a Silverado. I suppose you might argue that it is about
as good as a Titan, but when the debate is whether your truck is the
fourth or fifth best large pickup in the US, you should just stamp
loser on the taillgate and go back to building vehicles you
understand. At least they still have the Tacoma to give them some
credibility in the pickup world. The Tundra is just a bad joke.

Ed

Tundra is for weekend parenting.

On Oct 26, 8:25*am, Big Endian <5... (AT) hex (DOT) com.invalid> wrote:
> the tundra is for urban cowboys. *F-series is for real work.

"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote


That sure was a lot of data in your last message. But there's still some
important data missing. You still can't show data which indicates how many
people buy trucks "just to have", vs those who buy them because of their
work. That data would also need to be broken down by brand. You've made
claims which require this data in order to be believable, but you've never
shown the data. That's probably because such data doesn't exist.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
You have to look at the big picture.

Consider that people shopping for a vehicle at a Ford dealer will often
purchase the F150 rather than one of Ford's rather poor sedans, coupes,
or SUVs. That's how you end up with the F150 often being the "best
selling vehicle in the U.S." No one thinks that all those buyers are
contractors; those F150s are the daily commute vehicle for most of the
buyers.

People shopping for a vehicle at a Toyota dealer have a selection of
excellent cars, trucks, and SUVs. Few Toyota buyers are going to choose
a large pickup truck, with its rather poor MPG, as a passenger vehicle
for daily use. That's why Tundra buyers tend to be people that are using
their trucks for real work, not weekend warriors hauling bags of potting
soil home from Lowe's or Home Depot.

The market for personal vehicles is much larger than the market for real
work trucks, that's why the F150 sells well.

"SMS" <scharf.steven (AT) geemail (DOT) com> wrote


Maybe, but without data (which doesn't exist), your theories do nothing but
invite yet another detour in the discussion. Hunter should come along
shortly, sputtering & drooling with another of his drunken, misspelled
opinions.

But still, there will be no data. There may be a few dealerships where real
sales training is done, and the salespeople proactively ask buyers how they
plan on using their trucks. But we'll never know because nobody polls car
salesmen on this subject. I wish somebody would prove me wrong, though. It
would mean that there was more sales professionalism in the car business
than previously thought. That would be a win-win situation in so many ways.

"SMS" <scharf.steven (AT) geemail (DOT) com> wrote

This is sort of weird logic.

It seems to me you are saying - People decide they want a Ford, they
go to the Ford dealer, and the only decent vehcile is an F150, so they
buy it. They don't consider cars from other manufacturers, only Ford,
so they feel stuck with F150s. Do you think this is reasonable?

Don't you think it is more likely, that for whatever reason a large
number of people decide they want a truck, and then once they decide
they want a truck, a large percentage decide to buy a Ford F150? This
seems much more likely to me.

In the last 5 years I have bought five new vehicles (three for me and
two for children). Three were cars (Mustang, Fusion, Mazda3) and two
were trucks (Frontier, F150). I didn't start out looking to buy a car
(say the Fusion) and end up in an F150. I wanted/needed a car and
bought a car that I thought best meet the need (or want). Likewise
when I decided to get a new farm truck, I looked around and bought a
truck. I didn't go to the Toyota dealer and think, hey, they have
great cars, I'll buy one. No, I looked at their trucks, and Ford's,
and Nissan's, and bought a Nissan (and then after 3 years decided I
hated it and bought a Ford).

I can buy the arguement that until recently Ford's car offereings were
not as attractive relative to their trucks as offering from other
manufacturers, and therefore Ford sales were skewed to trucks (i.e., a
larger percetnage of Ford's total sales were trucks than cars). I
can't buy the arguement that the F150 is the best selling vehicle
becasue it is Ford's only decent offering.

Ed

Sir F. A. Rien wrote:

The Tundra has always been a favorite of contractors and those that use
their trucks for actual work and not just farting around.

Last week I was at In 'N Out and parked between an Ford crew cab and a
Tundra crew cab. The Tundra was a few years old with steel racks
carrying 2x4's and PVC, a tool box in the bed, and a big old vise on the
bumper. Three construction workers got into it as I got out of my car.
The Ford crew cab had two child seats in the back, and a mom was getting
her two toddlers out of the back.

The above scenario is very typical. The Ford is a passenger car
replacement for those that have occasional need for a truck for towing a
boat or trailer, or picking up gardening stuff from the home improvement
store. Heck, if I were going to buy a Ford, I'd buy one of their trucks
as well. The Tundra customer is buying a truck because they need a
reliable work vehicle, not a passenger car.

Oh, and as someone pointed out in a previous post, the Tundra has higher
domestic content.