'96 Intrepid no-start

My neighbor is having car problems. His mechanic told him to scrap it or
blow over a grand on it. Pfft I say...

It's a '96 Intrepid, 3.5L. From what I understand it was running great. One
morning the son went to start it and it just sat there cranking, and hasn't
fired since. I'm told his mechanic checked for spark and it sparks only one
time while cranking, although I haven't checked this for myself yet. From my
own quick once-over I do NOT hear the fuel pump and see no pressure at the
fuel rail after trying to prime it a few times or while cranking. So, are
there any common areas I should check? On this car, if the fuel pump went
out (swapping relays didn't help) would that kill the ignition system? Or
vice-versa? Does this thing have a crank or cam position sensor? I don't see
how that would stop the pump but this is the first I've looked into this
car. ECM? I can't imagine that there's terribly much wrong with it.



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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article <464e2150$0$16382$88260bb3 (AT) free (DOT) teranews.com>,
"SBlackfoot" <trypticon (AT) sympatico (DOT) obvious.ca> wrote:

My neighbor is having car problems. His mechanic told him to scrap it or
blow over a grand on it. Pfft I say...

It's a '96 Intrepid, 3.5L. From what I understand it was running great. One
morning the son went to start it and it just sat there cranking, and hasn't
fired since. I'm told his mechanic checked for spark and it sparks only one
time while cranking, although I haven't checked this for myself yet. From my
own quick once-over I do NOT hear the fuel pump and see no pressure at the
fuel rail after trying to prime it a few times or while cranking. So, are
there any common areas I should check?

Yes.

On this car, if the fuel pump went
out (swapping relays didn't help) would that kill the ignition system?

A short to ground in the fuel pump circuit -could- kill the
primary voltage to the ignition coils

Or vice-versa?

The PCM needs to see the correct crankshaft and camshaft sensor
pulses in order to turn on the fuel pump and activate the
ignition coils.

Does this thing have a crank or cam position sensor?

Yes, both. Cam sensor is up top at the drivers side timing belt
area (reads off of the left cam sprocket), crank sensor is a the
lower passenger side of the bell housing (reads off of the
flywheel.

I don't see
how that would stop the pump but this is the first I've looked into this
car. ECM?

Doubt that it's the PCM.

I can't imagine that there's terribly much wrong with it.

First thing to verify is proper cam to crank timing.
If the cam sensor signal is not in correct synch with the
crankshaft sensor signal, the system is smart enough to kill
everything mentioned and you'll have the exact symptoms described.

Ask 'em how long it's been since the timing belt and water pump
have been replaced.

"SBlackfoot" <trypticon (AT) sympatico (DOT) obvious.ca> wrote

My neighbor is having car problems. His mechanic told him to scrap it or
blow over a grand on it. Pfft I say...

It's a '96 Intrepid, 3.5L. From what I understand it was running great.
One
morning the son went to start it and it just sat there cranking, and
hasn't
fired since. I'm told his mechanic checked for spark and it sparks only
one
time while cranking, although I haven't checked this for myself yet. From
my
own quick once-over I do NOT hear the fuel pump and see no pressure at the
fuel rail after trying to prime it a few times or while cranking. So, are
there any common areas I should check? On this car, if the fuel pump went
out (swapping relays didn't help) would that kill the ignition system? Or
vice-versa? Does this thing have a crank or cam position sensor? I don't
see
how that would stop the pump but this is the first I've looked into this
car. ECM? I can't imagine that there's terribly much wrong with it.

Borrow a Code reader from AutoZone, plug it in and tell me the codes.
Sounds like a cam sensor to me, though, & they're fairly easy to change. I
have a 94 Intrepede with a 3.3.

"SBlackfoot" <trypticon (AT) sympatico (DOT) obvious.ca> wrote

My neighbor is having car problems. His mechanic told him to scrap it or
blow over a grand on it. Pfft I say...

It's a '96 Intrepid, 3.5L. From what I understand it was running great.
One
morning the son went to start it and it just sat there cranking, and
hasn't
fired since.

That is classic symptoms of a slipped timing gear or belt.

Ted

Crap, can't see the replies through my newsreader. I'm the OP though.

First thing to verify is proper cam to crank timing.
If the cam sensor signal is not in correct synch with the
crankshaft sensor signal, the system is smart enough to kill
everything mentioned and you'll have the exact symptoms described.

Well the obvious question is how do I verify the crank/cam timing? I'm
not the least bit familiar with the 3.5L... yet. Are there reference
marks on the pullies I should check?

Ask 'em how long it's been since the timing belt and water pump
have been replaced.

I don't think he's had the car for more than a few months so I don't
expect an answer for that one I'm afraid.

Borrow a Code reader from AutoZone, plug it in and tell me the codes.
Sounds like a cam sensor to me, though, & they're fairly easy to change. I
have a 94 Intrepede with a 3.3.

That reminds me, does the ignition on-off-on-off-on trick work on a
'96, like it does on my older Voyager and GCL?

In article
<1179608060.311869.148690 (AT) y80g2000hsf (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
transamgta (AT) gmail (DOT) com wrote:

Crap, can't see the replies through my newsreader. I'm the OP though.

First thing to verify is proper cam to crank timing.
If the cam sensor signal is not in correct synch with the
crankshaft sensor signal, the system is smart enough to kill
everything mentioned and you'll have the exact symptoms described.

Well the obvious question is how do I verify the crank/cam timing? I'm
not the least bit familiar with the 3.5L... yet. Are there reference
marks on the pullies I should check?

You can test electronically with a 2 channel lab scope, this
method will prove or disprove whether the 2 sensors are in synch
but will not verify actual cam timing.
Alternately, you can remove the timing belt cover(s), line up the
timing marks (crank and both cams) and verify that way. This
looks and sounds worse than it actually is... I can do it in
about 20 minutes.

Ask 'em how long it's been since the timing belt and water pump
have been replaced.

I don't think he's had the car for more than a few months so I don't
expect an answer for that one I'm afraid.

And it wasn't a consideration during the purchase?

"SBlackfoot" <trypticon (AT) sympatico (DOT) obvious.ca> wrote

My neighbor is having car problems. His mechanic told him to scrap it or
blow over a grand on it. Pfft I say...

It's a '96 Intrepid, 3.5L. From what I understand it was running great.
One
morning the son went to start it and it just sat there cranking, and
hasn't
fired since. I'm told his mechanic checked for spark and it sparks only
one
time while cranking, although I haven't checked this for myself yet. From
my
own quick once-over I do NOT hear the fuel pump and see no pressure at the
fuel rail after trying to prime it a few times or while cranking. So, are
there any common areas I should check? On this car, if the fuel pump went
out (swapping relays didn't help) would that kill the ignition system? Or
vice-versa? Does this thing have a crank or cam position sensor? I don't
see
how that would stop the pump but this is the first I've looked into this
car. ECM? I can't imagine that there's terribly much wrong with it.

As you can probably guess, you really need fuel pressure, and you really
need 3 sparks each revolution. Just keep looking until you're sure you've
got one and not the other.

Fuel pressure should come up before you start it. Every car is like that.
When you turn the switch on it should run. If it doesn't run, direct feed
it some power.

Personally, I've been having some trouble with coils once in a while. I had
a problem where my coil drew enough amps to blow the ECM fuse. You might
check that fuse.

It has both a cam and crank sensor. When you start it, after everything
turns over, it figures out where it is. If the cam and crank sensors aren't
aligned, it'll never sync up and it won't start. So there's one
possibility, jumped timing or a broken timing belt. It's pretty easy to
check. The front engine cover is split at the crank, so you can that whole
thing off without doing a whole lot to the front of the engine. There's
also a little piece of the front cover that allows you to see the belt up in
the upper right corner.

The two sensors could be at fault. I don't know if they'd set a code in the
condition you've got, where the engine won't run. Hard to say.

"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm (AT) toybox (DOT) placo.com> wrote

"SBlackfoot" <trypticon (AT) sympatico (DOT) obvious.ca> wrote in message
news:464e2150$0$16382$88260bb3 (AT) free (DOT) teranews.com...
My neighbor is having car problems. His mechanic told him to scrap it or
blow over a grand on it. Pfft I say...

It's a '96 Intrepid, 3.5L. From what I understand it was running great.
One
morning the son went to start it and it just sat there cranking, and
hasn't
fired since.

That is classic symptoms of a slipped timing gear or belt.

Ted

I have to say, this is one of the most competent threads I've ever seen on
USENET. I sure hope the OP is taking all this in. Great answers from
everybody so far.

You can test electronically with a 2 channel lab scope, this
method will prove or disprove whether the 2 sensors are in synch
but will not verify actual cam timing.
Alternately, you can remove the timing belt cover(s), line up the
timing marks (crank and both cams) and verify that way. This
looks and sounds worse than it actually is... I can do it in
about 20 minutes.

Well the lab scope is currently beyond the means of this backyard
mechanic... I'll look into inspecting the timing marks, after I try to
check for codes with the good ol' key trick. With any luck I'll take a
look tomorrow, after swapping engine mounts on my GCL.

And it wasn't a consideration during the purchase?

I honestly doubt it. How many people out there buying used cars ever
think of such things?