Recently I bought an '89 Grand Caravan with the 3.0 liter engine. I bought
a manual for it the same day I bought the van, both because I knew I'd
need it eventually and because I wanted to learn about the vehicle.

The only manual Auto Zone had in stock for my van was the Haynes Repair
Manual for 1984 through 1995 Dodge Caravan, Plymouth Voyager and Chrysler
Town & Country mini vans.

I am disappointed with the manual. I've not yet used it for any major
procedure but I've already spotted several omissions. In chapter 1, it
begins by showing pictures of the engine compartment, with the major
components identified. A picture of the 2.5 liter is shown, as is the 2.6,
3.3 and 3.8. But no photo of my motor, the 3.0.

I wanted to look up the oil pressure, and the engine idle speed. 3.0 liter
oil pressure: "Not available". Idle speed: "Not adjustable". Great, but
what would be wrong with telling me what it is supposed to be?

A much larger omission is that there is no mention of the Body Control
Module (BCM) anywhere in the entire manual.

Is this as good as it gets? Would a Clymer or Chiltons manual be better?

--
Tony Sivori

Tony Sivori <TonySivoriMSWORMS (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes:

(long list of Haynes deficiencies snipped)
This is the reason for the standard advice, found on this newsgroup
many times from many people: don't waste your time and money; get a
factory service manual. Yes, they cost several times what a Haynes
(etc) will. But they cost much, much less than you can expect to
spend on maintenance over the life of your vehicle.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair

You'd be better off doing an internet search and see if somebody is selling
a copy of the Chrysler shop manual for your vehicle. As a general rule,
Chilton, Haynes, and the others are pretty useless.

Bruce


"Tony Sivori" <TonySivoriMSWORMS (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Tony Sivori wrote:

That's because AutoZone sucks.

You need a *factory* service manual for your van. That's the one written
and put out by Chrysler. Nothing else -- NOTHING ELSE -- will substitute.
Haynes, Chilton's, Clymer, etc. are all garbage.

The correct manual is a 3-volume set, and you'll have no trouble finding a
used set on Ebay.

So said Professor Joe:
So I say, why isn't STANDARD EQUIPMENT for D-C to include the factory shop
manual?

They take pride in making a standard equipment list as long as your right
leg, half the items frivolous like "cup holders." Now I know only 5% of
owners are ever going to look at the FSM, but what about the independent
shop who has to service the car? If you get towed into Joe's Auto Repair
and General Store out in the boondocks, he just might want to look in it to
find the trouble codes, electrical schematic, or some other esoteric
look-see. Just because the poor slob is out of the mainstream dealer
network doesn't mean he can't do a job; but you can bet your boots the
independent isn't going to have a library of a thousand shop manuals. He
needs yours.

Its time for the DOT and NHRA and NAFTA to get together and pass a rule.
Just like your car has to have seat belts whether you want them or not, its
going to have a FSM if I get to have any say-so.

BTW, it will cost D-C less than the cost of Mickey Mouse Whitewalls to
throw in a FSM in your soon-to-be jalopy.

Nomen Nescio wrote:
I disagree with that. Why bump the cost of every vehicle up when only a
small fraction will need, use, or otherwise be willing to buy separately
the FSM. Overall cost to every consumer would increase - more than just
the amortized cost per manual of the fraction of a percent that would
otherwise purchase it, but the amoritzed cost of many many times that -
so overall costs for everyone would go up much more than the total cost
of just the ones that are actually needed (i.e., actually sold today to
those willing to pay the price). And I'm not a tree hugger, but think
of the wasted paper of all those totally unused manuals sitting around.
If we still had outhouses, that would be one thing.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


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Tony Sivori wrote:
Another adamant vote for the factory manual. A Haynes cost me $260 and
the substitution of a perfectly good original factory alternator with
the best available but still inferior aftermarket one because the
"Typical" schematic left out a fuse that was inline with the hot wire
that was visibly hidden on the vehicle. Let's see: Haynes manual $15.
FSM would have cost $95. First time out on that vehicle, it cost me
$260 unnecessarily , plus I ended up with an inferior alternator. Did I
save money by buying a manual that cost less that 1/5 the cost of the
FSM? You do the math.

IMO, the worst part of the aftermarket manuals is the "Typical"
shematics that cover too many years and vehicle variations. A scehmatic
either applies to your vehicle and is a great aid in troubleshooting, or
it isn't. It would be like saying: "I want to drive from New York to
Chicago - hmmm - any typical map will do. Here - here's one from LA to
Seatle - I'll just use that one."

An alternative to the hard copy FSM is www.alldata. For $25, you get
real-time on-line access to info right out of the FSM, plus full text of
all TSB's for your vehicle. That's for a 1-year subscription. It's $15
for any additional vehicles and renewals.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


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Haynes is garbage: Chilton & Clymer are good. It helps to get one for your
*specific* vehicle, but they have very useful info even if they cover
several models. Of course, there is no substitute for the factory service
manual if you can afford it. Personally, I usually don't need any more
info than the Chilton or Clymer has, but I've been building my own cars
for 35+ years now.
My Haynes for my bike dosen't even cover how to static time it; ever tried
to time a bike that's not running with a timming light? :-(
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004, ThaDriver wrote:

No. Haynes is garbage, Chilton & Clymer are also garbage.

Haynes, Chilton and Clymer don't publish books for *specific* vehicles.

Useful for lining a birdcage or a cat litter box, not for fixing vehicles.
FAR too many errors!

If you can't afford a $45 factory manual, you can't afford any tools to
fix a car, either.

Tony Sivori wrote:

There's a old saying about getting what you pay for. You buy a cheap
manual and you get a cheap manual. Spend the big bucks for a real
factory manual set if you really plan to work on your vehicle yourself.


Matt