"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote

*snipping good info*
OK, thanks. Now, why did Ford drag their feet on admitting the design was
wrong for that type of work. I'm not saying the police were without fault
completely, just isn't this something that should have been explained,
before these guys died/were maimed horribly?

Natalie

On Apr 4, 2:59 pm, "Wickeddoll®"
<wickeddoll1958diespammers... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

Ford has never admitted the design was "wrong" for the work becasue
that is not a true statement. I might as well ask you why is Toyota
dragging their feet on admitting Echos have one of the worst safet
records of any vehichle sold in this country. Why is it that Toyota
owner feel the need to try to create false impressions about Ford
products while ignore the glaring faults with Toyota products? This is
exactly the sort of thing that drives me crazy. It is not just
something that you do - the press does this as well. Any problem with
a domestically produced vehicle is front page news. Toyota recalls are
just ignored or pushed to the second page of the weekly auto section.
Many Toyota vehicles have mediocre Injury Loss Ratings, so it seems to
me it take a very biased Toyota owner to accuse Ford of building
unsafe vehicles. It you don't believe me on this, go to
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/ictl.html and look up the injury
loss rating for yourself. Here are some comparisons (remember, lower
is better):

Ford Crown Victoria 71, Toyota Avalon 79
Ford 500 92, Toyota Camry 110 (Taurus was 106)
Ford Focus 150, Toyota Corolla 159, Toyota Echo 189
F150 Reg cab 68, Toyota Tundra 67
F150 Ext Cab 59, Toyota Tundra Ext Cab 89
Ford Escape 87, Toyota RAV4 (old model) 123

Crown Victorias are not particularly fire prone. Ford conducts fuel
integrity crash tests on the CV at far higher speeds than required by
the government. The Chevrolet Caprice (also a rear wheel drive car
with a solid axle) had a similar safety record to the CVs. I don't
know if an Imapla Patrol car has ever burst into flames. Impalas make
up a very small percentage of all poilce vehicles. Only a tiny number
of all police vehicles are ever invovled in an accident that results
in a fire. There are tens of thousand of CV patrol vehicles on the
road. The chances of one of these vehicles being in a violent
collision are much higher than a Impala or Charger being in a similar
collision. It is my opinion that an officier is safer in CV than an
Impala or a Charger. The injury loss rating for the Civilian CV is
better than for the civilian Impala (71 vs 97 - lower is better - the
Charger is to new to have a rating yet, the somewhat similar Chrysler
300 has a rating of 103).

Ed

"Ed White" <ce.white3 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

On Apr 4, 2:59 pm, "Wickeddoll®"
<wickeddoll1958diespammers... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

Ford has never admitted the design was "wrong" for the work becasue
that is not a true statement. I might as well ask you why is Toyota
dragging their feet on admitting Echos have one of the worst safet
records of any vehichle sold in this country. Why is it that Toyota
owner feel the need to try to create false impressions about Ford
products while ignore the glaring faults with Toyota products? This is
exactly the sort of thing that drives me crazy. It is not just
something that you do - the press does this as well. Any problem with
a domestically produced vehicle is front page news. Toyota recalls are
just ignored or pushed to the second page of the weekly auto section.
Many Toyota vehicles have mediocre Injury Loss Ratings, so it seems to
me it take a very biased Toyota owner to accuse Ford of building
unsafe vehicles. It you don't believe me on this, go to
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/ictl.html and look up the injury
loss rating for yourself.

*snipping some of this for brevity*

Crown Victorias are not particularly fire prone. Ford conducts fuel
integrity crash tests on the CV at far higher speeds than required by
the government. The Chevrolet Caprice (also a rear wheel drive car
with a solid axle) had a similar safety record to the CVs. I don't
know if an Imapla Patrol car has ever burst into flames. Impalas make
up a very small percentage of all poilce vehicles. Only a tiny number
of all police vehicles are ever invovled in an accident that results
in a fire. There are tens of thousand of CV patrol vehicles on the
road. The chances of one of these vehicles being in a violent
collision are much higher than a Impala or Charger being in a similar
collision. It is my opinion that an officier is safer in CV than an
Impala or a Charger. The injury loss rating for the Civilian CV is
better than for the civilian Impala (71 vs 97 - lower is better - the
Charger is to new to have a rating yet, the somewhat similar Chrysler
300 has a rating of 103).

Ed

Sorry, not buying. You still haven't said why this happened only with
certain cars. Do Toyotas have defects? Dangerous defects, sometimes? Hell
ya. But I suspect, that like many things, size matters. The Echo is a tiny
car (so is the Impala); naturally you won't survive a crash as well in it.
That's the chance you take with a small car. Nothing new. That is not my
point at all.

Also, you're talking general injury/losses. I'm talking the *unique* loss
of your damned car exploding. BIG difference. All vehicles are potential
death traps - what else is new.

But that exploding car is *not* something commonly seen. THAT is my gripe
about it; not that Toyotas are necessarily safer overall.

Natalie

You are mistaken in your belief.. You can educate yourself, search the NHTSA
site. If you do, you will discover their two year investigation, of
complaints of fires in the CV and the Interceptor, proved the Interceptor
far exceeds ANY certifies police car or OTHER car on the market, in the
ability to take a hit in the rear without effecting the integrity of the
fuel system or injury to passengers..

mike


"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

On Apr 4, 5:44 pm, "Wickeddoll®"
<wickeddoll1958diespammers... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

What do you mean by certain cars? Different types of cars respond
diffeently to different type of crashes. The car most comparable to
the Crown Victoria was the old Chevrolet Caprice (no longer sold).
NHTSA concluded that the Caprice and the CV had similar safety
records.

Crown Victoria don't just "explode." Your making this claim is an
attempt to paint Crown Victorias unfairly. Sometimes in a violent
collision cars, including Toyotas, catch on fire. Becasue of the
unique way in which the police use their vehicles, they are more
likely to be involved in violent rear end collisions than average
vehicles. You know - the whole idea of being parked on the shoulder of
I-95 while SUVs roar by at 80 mph.

For 1999-2002 Models in calander years 2000-2003, Crown Victorias had
the 46th lowest driver death rate of all vehicles sold in the US
(there are 199 models in the list). The only Toyota car with a lower
driver death rate was the Avalon. Given that a high percentage of CVs
are in police usage, and therefore exposed to a more hazaduos
enviroment, it seems to me you are way off base trying to paint Crown
Victorias as unusually unsafe.

Ed

"Ed White" <ce.white3 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

On Apr 4, 5:44 pm, "Wickeddoll®"
<wickeddoll1958diespammers... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

*snipping the repeated comments*

For 1999-2002 Models in calander years 2000-2003, Crown Victorias had
the 46th lowest driver death rate of all vehicles sold in the US
(there are 199 models in the list). The only Toyota car with a lower
driver death rate was the Avalon. Given that a high percentage of CVs
are in police usage, and therefore exposed to a more hazaduos
enviroment, it seems to me you are way off base trying to paint Crown
Victorias as unusually unsafe.

Ed

I don't know how to make it more clear for you.

*ahem*

I am NOT saying the CVs are responsible for more deaths than any other car.
I get that part, I do.

I AM saying, if it has a particular defect, that is especially dangerous for
certain uses, such as cops, Ford should have been more forthcoming in
accepting responsibility, *AND* for letting the other cops, as well as the
public know that this car is more prone to detonate in certain situations.

I remember when this issue first came up, and it infuriated me that Ford
kept saying it was the cops' fault, and that *nothing* was wrong with the
car's design. They could have at least acknowledged that there were more
factors than how the car was used.

Clearly there was - at least at that time.

I don't know about where you are, but I don't see nearly as many CVs being
driven by cops anymore - but you'll probably try to tell me it's the unfair
media attention, so we won't go into that, cuz I can't buy it.

Guess this is another thing we'll have to agree to disagree about.

Natalie

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2 (AT) mailcity (DOT) com> wrote

One thing about lawsuits: They are rarely based on reality. They are based
on emotions. Facts almost always get lost in the way.

Jeff

Wickeddoll® wrote:

Thank you, I try my best

Since Crown Vics have been a Police favorite for years, almost
exclusively, It might be why...

At least, they don't drop transmissions on the road like Chryslers. Or
suddendly catch fire like some Mercedes, and so on... Every car model
has its own quirks (In my Contour, the quirk was the whole car...)

Let me rephrase that. The Radio worked fine

--
Don't drink water, fish have sex in it!

"El Bandito" <abuseur (AT) videotron (DOT) ca> wrote

*shudder* :-)
LOL

Natalie

"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote


The "unique" loss of your damned car exploding? Do tell - what car out
there simply "explodes"? Perhaps you should study the incidents in which
the Crown Vic has suffered gas tank intrusion and you just might see that
those cases involved circumstances that would be considered extreme by any
definition. If you want an automobile that is engineered to withstand
anything that can possibly be encountered on the road, buy an Abrams tank.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net