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McLaren Front Wing - Moveable areodynamic device
Formula 1 Formula 1 motor racing discusions (rec.autos.sport.f1)
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#31
 
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Re: McLaren Front Wing - Moveable areodynamic device -
05-15-2007
, 08:11 AM
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peter wrote: When I was watching Massa's front wing it seemed to me that the wing wasn't just bending but twisting as well and therefore producing a lesser AoA...surely that has to represent a significant aerodynamic advantage? You're seeing it from an angle looking down - if the wing moves downwards, the angle of the plane of the wing relative to the camera will change. You need a side view to see any twist, or a view from directly behind the wing absolutely on the same level. Claiming that the wing twists just means you haven't thought about parallax errors  Hmmm, I'm still not convinced, |
showed the LHS Ferrari front wing...I was looking at the "V POWER"
lettering and in particular the gap between the top of the V and the
trailing edge of the wing. Unless I'm very much mistaken that gap
visible increases with speed....ie the trailing edge of the front wing
moves down more than the leading edge.
Now doing some very basic (and half arsed) experiments using a card with
letters on it and trying to match the angles and amount of movement, the
only way I can duplicate what I recall seeing is to twist the card
rather than solely moving it up and down.
Your witness (:-))
--
Peter
#32
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Phil Newnham <pnewnham (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes peter wrote: When I was watching Massa's front wing it seemed to me that the wing wasn't just bending but twisting as well and therefore producing a lesser AoA...surely that has to represent a significant aerodynamic advantage? You're seeing it from an angle looking down - if the wing moves downwards, the angle of the plane of the wing relative to the camera will change. You need a side view to see any twist, or a view from directly behind the wing absolutely on the same level. Claiming that the wing twists just means you haven't thought about parallax errors Hmmm, I'm still not convinced, I'm recalling the footage from the low down forward facing camera that showed the LHS Ferrari front wing...I was looking at the "V POWER" lettering and in particular the gap between the top of the V and the trailing edge of the wing. Unless I'm very much mistaken that gap visible increases with speed....ie the trailing edge of the front wing moves down more than the leading edge. Now doing some very basic (and half arsed) experiments using a card with letters on it and trying to match the angles and amount of movement, the only way I can duplicate what I recall seeing is to twist the card rather than solely moving it up and down. Your witness (:-)) |
renault one too, had a noticable curvature to them, such that
as it flexed in one direction it changed its front-back profile.
That does make geometrical sense - a negative curvature (saddle),
and maybe a zero-curvature (cylinder), 3-dimensional profile to
the wing will cause the front-back profile to flaten as the left-
right profile bends downwards. That matches my recollection of
what I saw.
However, Phil's right that visual effect can also be explained
by parallax.
Which actually occurs, and in what proportion, depends on the
elastic and either the shear modulus or bulk modulus of the
material. I have no idea what those might be, nor exactly how
they would need to relate to each other in order to favour or
disfavour flattening of the wing's profile. (Except that low
elastic modulus would favour it not changing profile due to
bending.)
It might be worth experimenting with a strip of metal cut from
a beer can or similar.
Phil
--
"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank
so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of
/In God We Trust, Inc./.
#33
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Hmmm, I'm still not convinced, I'm recalling the footage from the low down forward facing camera that showed the LHS Ferrari front wing...I was looking at the "V POWER" lettering and in particular the gap between the top of the V and the trailing edge of the wing. Unless I'm very much mistaken that gap visible increases with speed....ie the trailing edge of the front wing moves down more than the leading edge. |
appears to move further.
Quote:
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Now doing some very basic (and half arsed) experiments using a card with letters on it and trying to match the angles and amount of movement, the only way I can duplicate what I recall seeing is to twist the card rather than solely moving it up and down. Your witness (:-)) |
above
--
Phil
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tmc1979/
#34
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peter wrote: Hmmm, I'm still not convinced, I'm recalling the footage from the low down forward facing camera that showed the LHS Ferrari front wing...I was looking at the "V POWER" lettering and in particular the gap between the top of the V and the trailing edge of the wing. Unless I'm very much mistaken that gap visible increases with speed....ie the trailing edge of the front wing moves down more than the leading edge. That's a parallax effect - the trailing edge is closer to you and appears to move further. |
effect seen.
Quote:
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Now doing some very basic (and half arsed) experiments using a card with letters on it and trying to match the angles and amount of movement, the only way I can duplicate what I recall seeing is to twist the card rather than solely moving it up and down. Your witness (:-)) Well, I have had a go with a Post-it and I can get what you describe above Ha...well there is your problem right there..Post-its are notoriously |
--
Peter
#35
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Phil Newnham <pnewnham (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes peter wrote: Hmmm, I'm still not convinced, I'm recalling the footage from the low down forward facing camera that showed the LHS Ferrari front wing...I was looking at the "V POWER" lettering and in particular the gap between the top of the V and the trailing edge of the wing. Unless I'm very much mistaken that gap visible increases with speed....ie the trailing edge of the front wing moves down more than the leading edge. That's a parallax effect - the trailing edge is closer to you and appears to move further. I understand the principle...just not sure it fully accounts for the effect seen. |
orI'll turn into Brendan!
Quote:
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Now doing some very basic (and half arsed) experiments using a card with letters on it and trying to match the angles and amount of movement, the only way I can duplicate what I recall seeing is to twist the card rather than solely moving it up and down. Your witness (:-)) Well, I have had a go with a Post-it and I can get what you describe above Ha...well there is your problem right there..Post-its are notoriously unreliable for this kind of experiment! |
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Phil
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tmc1979/
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