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Qualifying is still crap
Formula 1 Formula 1 motor racing discusions (rec.autos.sport.f1)
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#31
 
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Re: Qualifying is still crap -
05-17-2007
, 11:55 AM
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Looking at qualifying as a totally seperate entity from the race is a mistake. |
qualifying lap.
You can't give me something fantastic for 20 years and then give us what we
have today without some of us saying it's crap!
#32
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On Wed, 16 May 2007 15:26:05 -0700, "just bob" <kilbyfan@aoldotcom wrote: "Bigbird" <bigbird.usenet (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:xn0f6a5zg6hjdg700b (AT) news (DOT) individual.net... just bob wrote: "Paul-B" <paul (AT) rasf1 (DOT) net> wrote in message news:5b0s4cF2pr5qbU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net... Bigbird wrote: just bob wrote: I still think the qualifying is crap. The first two sessions are OK >>> but the last session should be run single car, one lap. The problem >>> is, when everyone is out on their final hot lap the television is >>> watching the start finish line. BORING! And I'm still tired of the >>> race-fuel qualifying, even if they do get to burn it off. It's all >>> so stupid, really. The later half of Q3 is almost as exciting as qualifying ever was at it's best, add back Q1 and Q2 and, while we don't get the single all out low fuel lap, I reckon this is the one aspect of todays F1 that they have got right. Q1 and Q2 are fine as they are, but watching a line of F1 cars circling to burn off fuel is a drag. I agreed Q1 and Q2 are fine. But what about none of the final hot laps being shown - all we get is a shot of the start finish line as the cars cross? It's crap. Race fuel qualifying is the only that makes sense, so without changing that aspect, your suggestions are? Re: Fuel, I guess I'm the only one who wants to see the cars on running on fumes and thus at the limit, running out of gas on the cool down lap and all that stuff we used to have. I don't know how to change it to see more fast laps other than do single-car. Not too many years ago you would see an hour of qual and chances were, barring sudden rain or track drying, over that hour you would see a lot of drivers on their fastest laps. The problem now is the current scheme Unfortunately, that went down the drain when the top teams decided to only go out for maybe 5-6 minutes of qualifying, set a quick hot lap and piss off back to the garage. And usually, this occured towards the end with about 10 minutes to go, leavign just enough time that they could have another hot lap, if deemed needed. It was actually that trend which made them change the qualy format. The TV viewers(and track side spectators like me) saw next to nothing for 45 minutes, with Aguri-like teams circulating for no other reason but to gather testing miles, while the ones you really wanted to see were sipping tea in the pits. Then all hell broke loose for 10 minutes, with the small teams still out there and the big ones trying to get around them. Early on in my viewing carreer the old format was great, but it slowly became a bore. This current system is much better. The only way the old system would be good is if the FIA took a stern stance and somehow forced all teams to be out there at least 50-60% of the duration. But then, teams would suddenly develop some niggling car problems, preventing them to go out... and, you know, safety first, so nothign would be done about that. |
give them 15 minutes to decide the pole, and everyone will be out there on
hot laps, not burning off fuel. I'll remove my request for single-car qualy
because, as another said, the chance to see one respond to another's time is
fun to watch.
#33
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In article <464bd906.1832270359 (AT) news (DOT) snap.net.nz>, Mark (AT) Jones (DOT) co.nz says... On 17 May 2007 03:10:13 +0300, Phil Carmody thefatphil_demunged (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote: "Von Fourche" <Khonakong (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: "just bob" <kilbyfan@aoldotcom> wrote in message news:464b337b$0$27182$742ec2ed (AT) news (DOT) sonic.net... I still think the qualifying is crap. The first two sessions are OK but the last session should be run single car, one lap. The problem is, when everyone is out on their final hot lap the television is watching the start finish line. BORING! And I'm still tired of the race-fuel qualifying, even if they do get to burn it off. It's all so stupid, really. Qualifying was changed because of the Schumacher/Ferrari domination. There was really nothing wrong with the 12 total laps/one hour format. So you found 24 minutes of completely empty track interesing? Maybe they should combine practice and qualfying again? That way there'll always be something happening. Why not split the field into four equal groups according to Championship ranking and mandate each team in each group perform at least x laps during a specified 15 minute period of qualy? So, bottom feeders *must* run x laps between Q0:00 and Q0:15, 2nd from bottom, x laps between Q0:15 and Q0:30, etc. All teams are free to use the track at any time during the session for setup and reconnaisance. Qualifying times may be set at any time during the hour. |
burning the fuel off. Then again if I'm a spectator and I only get two
tries in a session to snap a picture of my hero, that would suck.
#34
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First it is a return to low fuel qualifying which is a big backward step. |
the front row like they use to?
#35
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David Melville wrote: In article <xn0f6b6137d95lq00h (AT) news (DOT) individual.net>, bigbird.usenet (AT) gmail (DOT) com says... David Melville wrote: In article <464bd906.1832270359 (AT) news (DOT) snap.net.nz>, Mark (AT) Jones (DOT) co.nz says... On 17 May 2007 03:10:13 +0300, Phil Carmody thefatphil_demunged (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote: "Von Fourche" <Khonakong (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: "just bob" <kilbyfan@aoldotcom> wrote in message news:464b337b$0$27182$742ec2ed (AT) news (DOT) sonic.net... I still think the qualifying is crap. The first two sessions are OK but the >> >last session should be run single car, one lap. The problem is, when >> >everyone is out on their final hot lap the television is watching the start >> >finish line. BORING! And I'm still tired of the race-fuel qualifying, even if they do get to burn it off. It's all so stupid, really. Qualifying was changed because of the Schumacher/Ferrari domination. >> There was really nothing wrong with the 12 total laps/one hour format. So you found 24 minutes of completely empty track interesing? Maybe they should combine practice and qualfying again? That way there'll always be something happening. Why not split the field into four equal groups according to Championship ranking and mandate each team in each group perform at least x laps during a specified 15 minute period of qualy? So, bottom feeders must run x laps between Q0:00 and Q0:15, 2nd from bottom, x laps between Q0:15 and Q0:30, etc. All teams are free to use the track at any time during the session for setup and reconnaisance. Qualifying times may be set at any time during the hour. First it is a return to low fuel qualifying Fantastic. Exactly! which is a big backward step. How so? It's old ground but... For e.g. say the Ferrari is on pole at Barcelona and has an open choice of what strategy to run, you are third on the grid how do you go about choosing your strategy? If you choose the optimum but are a lot lighter you are compromised until your first pitstop handing the race to the Ferrari. If you compromise and are a lot heavier than the optimum you are slower over race distance. It is all about second guessing the other cars strategy. Currently with qualifying pace more representative of relative start pace you still have the opportunity to run your own race/pace. |
That position is flawed.
#36
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"just bob" <kilbyfan@aoldotcom> writes: I still think the qualifying is crap. The first two sessions are OK but the last session should be run single car, one lap. The problem is, when everyone is out on their final hot lap the television is watching the start finish line. BORING! And I'm still tired of the race-fuel qualifying, even if they do get to burn it off. It's all so stupid, really. Given previous qualifying, maybe that last decade or so, I think you're completely and utterly wrong. The idea of getting rid of the moving roadblocks is a _VERY_ _POSITIVE_THING_. I remember the old Brundle bets of how long it would take before any car emered. 40% of qualifying was _nothing_ at all in the past. I remember 24 minutes of empty track personally. That's not interesting by anyone's metric. Exactly which bit about people driving as quickly as possibly did you think was "BORING"? Are you perhaps making a comment about the televisual producer, rather than the drivers themselves? |
and Q2 are good: No low fuel! Which is all that is really what is wrong
with Q3.
#37
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Colonel K wrote: Mark Jones wrote: On Wed, 16 May 2007 23:56:11 +0100, "Knight who says \"Ni!\"" spamalot@camelot> wrote: just bob wrote: "Bigbird" <bigbird.usenet (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:xn0f6a5zg6hjdg700b (AT) news (DOT) individual.net... just bob wrote: "Paul-B" <paul (AT) rasf1 (DOT) net> wrote in message news:5b0s4cF2pr5qbU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net... Bigbird wrote: just bob wrote: I still think the qualifying is crap. The first two sessions are OK >>> but the last session should be run single car, one lap. The >>>>>problem >>> is, when everyone is out on their final hot lap the >>>>>television is >>> watching the start finish line. BORING! And I'm >>>>>still tired of the >>> race-fuel qualifying, even if they do get to >>>>>burn it off. It's all >>> so stupid, really. The later half of Q3 is almost as exciting as qualifying ever was at it's best, add back Q1 and Q2 and, while we don't get the single all out low fuel lap, I reckon this is the one aspect of todays F1 that they have got right. Q1 and Q2 are fine as they are, but watching a line of F1 cars circling to burn off fuel is a drag. I agreed Q1 and Q2 are fine. But what about none of the final hot laps being shown - all we get is a shot of the start finish line as the cars cross? It's crap. Race fuel qualifying is the only that makes sense, so without changing that aspect, your suggestions are? Re: Fuel, I guess I'm the only one who wants to see the cars on running on fumes and thus at the limit, running out of gas on the cool down lap and all that stuff we used to have. I don't know how to change it to see more fast laps other than do single-car. Not too many years ago you would see an hour of qual and chances were, barring sudden rain or track drying, over that hour you would see a lot of drivers on their fastest laps. The problem now is the current scheme has everyone doing their fastest lap in the final two minutes. I do not fault the tv production: what else can they show? If in the final minutes say four cars are potential pole winners and since it is impossible to follow all of them, the producer follows the first car all the way to the line and then stays on that shot for the other three cars. If the producer decides to break tradition and show car #3, and you miss car #2 taking the pole the viewers will be pissed. So I guess we're stuck with watching the finish line. BORING! I agree with you completely. Perhaps the final session should be run like a mini version of the old system - that would spice it up. As for the TV, if all the final set of cars were on low fuel, you would get an idea of who's in the running after their first couple of laps, that would help the producers choose the best cars to watch. The problem with the old system is that there's no way for a driver to respond to someone setting a quicker time. That's something that, imo, any qualifying needs to have, that's what distinguishes it from rallying, for example. I agree to an extend but surely the current system also prevents a driver from responding to a quicker time. If he's tanked up with a higher race fuel load, there's nothing he can do about a lighter car. He can only respond to his team mate and that's assuming they are running the same strategy. Are you forgetting the purpose of qualifying? It is to put the car you are starting the race with in the best position on the grid you can achieve. There are clear reasons for it being like this. The other extreme are low fuel, qualifying setups, engines, tyres. While entertaining each of these are less and less relevent to the race start or more importantly race pace at the start of the race. Looking at qualifying as a totally seperate entity from the race is a mistake. |
fastest. Not the most consistent, or the most reliable (that's what
the race is for), but the absolute fastest. It used to be a really
exciting duel between the top guns, a game of one-upmanship. The cars
would be cranked up to the absolute maximum, only capable of a few
laps at the most before engines, tyres and fuel were gone. It was
really exciting.
By essentially making final qualifying the first few laps of the race,
that excitement of the duel has been greatly diluted. I think F1
would be improved if it returned somehow.
--
- Jones
#38
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On 17 May 2007 09:23:05 GMT, "Bigbird" <bigbird.usenet (AT) gmail (DOT) com wrote: Colonel K wrote: Mark Jones wrote: On Wed, 16 May 2007 23:56:11 +0100, "Knight who says \"Ni!\"" spamalot@camelot> wrote: just bob wrote: "Bigbird" <bigbird.usenet (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:xn0f6a5zg6hjdg700b (AT) news (DOT) individual.net... just bob wrote: "Paul-B" <paul (AT) rasf1 (DOT) net> wrote in message news:5b0s4cF2pr5qbU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net... Bigbird wrote: just bob wrote: I still think the qualifying is crap. The first two sessions are OK >>> but the last session should be run single car, one lap. The >>>>>problem >>> is, when everyone is out on their final hot lap the >>>>>television is >>> watching the start finish line. BORING! And I'm >>>>>still tired of the >>> race-fuel qualifying, even if they do get to >>>>>burn it off. It's all >>> so stupid, really. The later half of Q3 is almost as exciting as qualifying ever was at it's best, add back Q1 and Q2 and, while we don't get the single all out low fuel lap, I reckon this is the one aspect of todays F1 that they have got right. Q1 and Q2 are fine as they are, but watching a line of F1 cars circling to burn off fuel is a drag. I agreed Q1 and Q2 are fine. But what about none of the final hot laps being shown - all we get is a shot of the start finish line as the cars cross? It's crap. Race fuel qualifying is the only that makes sense, so without changing that aspect, your suggestions are? Re: Fuel, I guess I'm the only one who wants to see the cars on running on fumes and thus at the limit, running out of gas on the cool down lap and all that stuff we used to have. I don't know how to change it to see more fast laps other than do single-car. Not too many years ago you would see an hour of qual and chances were, barring sudden rain or track drying, over that hour you would see a lot of drivers on their fastest laps. The problem now is the current scheme has everyone doing their fastest lap in the final two minutes. I do not fault the tv production: what else can they show? If in the final minutes say four cars are potential pole winners and since it is impossible to follow all of them, the producer follows the first car all the way to the line and then stays on that shot for the other three cars. If the producer decides to break tradition and show car #3, and you miss car #2 taking the pole the viewers will be pissed. So I guess we're stuck with watching the finish line. BORING! I agree with you completely. Perhaps the final session should be run like a mini version of the old system - that would spice it up. As for the TV, if all the final set of cars were on low fuel, you would get an idea of who's in the running after their first couple of laps, that would help the producers choose the best cars to watch. The problem with the old system is that there's no way for a driver to respond to someone setting a quicker time. That's something that, imo, any qualifying needs to have, that's what distinguishes it from rallying, for example. I agree to an extend but surely the current system also prevents a driver from responding to a quicker time. If he's tanked up with a higher race fuel load, there's nothing he can do about a lighter car. He can only respond to his team mate and that's assuming they are running the same strategy. Are you forgetting the purpose of qualifying? It is to put the car you are starting the race with in the best position on the grid you can achieve. There are clear reasons for it being like this. The other extreme are low fuel, qualifying setups, engines, tyres. While entertaining each of these are less and less relevent to the race start or more importantly race pace at the start of the race. Looking at qualifying as a totally seperate entity from the race is a mistake. I disagree. Qualifying is meant to be about finding out who is the fastest. Not the most consistent, or the most reliable (that's what the race is for), but the absolute fastest. It used to be a really exciting duel between the top guns, a game of one-upmanship. The cars would be cranked up to the absolute maximum, only capable of a few laps at the most before engines, tyres and fuel were gone. It was really exciting. By essentially making final qualifying the first few laps of the race, that excitement of the duel has been greatly diluted. I think F1 would be improved if it returned somehow. |
was losing my mind: It seems only one person in this thread likes
qualifying as it is.
#39
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Early on in my viewing carreer the old format was great, but it slowly became a bore. This current system is much better. The only way the old system would be good is if the FIA took a stern stance and somehow forced all teams to be out there at least 50-60% of the duration. But then, teams would suddenly develop some niggling car problems, preventing them to go out... and, you know, safety first, so nothign would be done about that. Then all they have to do to fix it is to remove the fuel issue from Q3, and give them 15 minutes to decide the pole, and everyone will be out there on hot laps, not burning off fuel. I'll remove my request for single-car qualy because, as another said, the chance to see one respond to another's time is fun to watch. Indeed. The fuel thing is dippy to say the least, but it's there to |
It's interesting to note, that it works exactly the way as in our V8
Supercars. There, we have a single qualifying session with all cars
out, followed by a shootout(single lap, single car) session, where the
top 10 is decided. And the crowds love that format, the only
difference being, that the cars *are allowed* to refuel and not
wrapped into Glad Wrap blessed by Max.
--
Regards, Frank
#40
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Currently with qualifying pace more representative of relative start pace you still have the opportunity to run your own race/pace. {snip] Come off it - its exactly the same. You get into the top 10, at which point you have to commit to your strategy, having second guessed your competitors. If you think that than you really have thought about it at all. Bird, just because you think you thought about it and that makes you |
kudos for your self confidence, no matter how false that may be. ;-p
Qualifying was all about determining who *deserves* to be and where on
the grid, based on their outright speed. Period. Nothing to do with
the race.
--
Regards, Frank
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