Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994

#41

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:44:30 +0100, "Paul Harman"
<chatterbox (AT) doctorwhowebguide (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

"James Connors" <jconnors (AT) calcna (DOT) ab.ca.invalid> wrote in message
news:nGTlg.65588$771.13235 (AT) edtnps89 (DOT) ..
Damon and Williams, for whatever reasons, let the matter lie; for which
they should be complimented and considered superior to Michael and
Ferrari

ITYM Benetton.

Same team, different colour

--

#42

On 20 Jun 2006 10:08:28 +0200, Jim N <jim (AT) fakeemailaddress (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

CatharticF1 <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote:
"Ralph Bergman" <ralph.bergman3 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in
news:449612f5$0$9914$88260bb3 (AT) free (DOT) teranews.com:
"CatharticF1" <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote
You mean like Hill driving into the back of Schu at Monza and
Silverstone the following year?

Describe?

It's self evident - I watched it at the time and on two occasions Damon
made what could be at best judged impetuous and at worst bloody minded
attempts that took both of them off the road. Damon received a one race
suspended ban for the Monza incident. But as he's not the whipping boy
around here that is conveniently forgotten.

Definitely not forgotten here.

To my mind both were very poor overtaking attempts in the 'let me
through or crash' style. Are you claiming they are more, and that
Damon had an agenda in deliberately causing these crashes? Maybe to
give his fellow Brit (although Schumacher's team mate) Johnny Herbert
a couple of easy wins?

Silverstone in particular just seemed like a rush of blood in front of
an expectant home crowd, jumping into less than half a gap.

If you're comparing these moves to Adelaide, I don't think that's
valid.

You don't think it's valid that Hill could have had another 'rush of
blood' when he saw Schumacher slow and on the wrong angle for the
corner? If he'd just waited a moment he could have swept past as they
accelerated out of the corner.

- Jones

#43

"Mark Jones" <Mark (AT) Jones (DOT) co.nz> wrote

Quote:

On 20 Jun 2006 10:08:28 +0200, Jim N <jim (AT) fakeemailaddress (DOT) com> wrote:
CatharticF1 <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote:
"Ralph Bergman" <ralph.bergman3 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in
news:449612f5$0$9914$88260bb3 (AT) free (DOT) teranews.com:
"CatharticF1" <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote
You mean like Hill driving into the back of Schu at Monza and
Silverstone the following year?

Describe?

It's self evident - I watched it at the time and on two occasions Damon
made what could be at best judged impetuous and at worst bloody minded
attempts that took both of them off the road. Damon received a one race
suspended ban for the Monza incident. But as he's not the whipping boy
around here that is conveniently forgotten.

Definitely not forgotten here.

To my mind both were very poor overtaking attempts in the 'let me
through or crash' style. Are you claiming they are more, and that
Damon had an agenda in deliberately causing these crashes? Maybe to
give his fellow Brit (although Schumacher's team mate) Johnny Herbert
a couple of easy wins?

Silverstone in particular just seemed like a rush of blood in front of
an expectant home crowd, jumping into less than half a gap.

If you're comparing these moves to Adelaide, I don't think that's
valid.

You don't think it's valid that Hill could have had another 'rush of
blood' when he saw Schumacher slow and on the wrong angle for the
corner? If he'd just waited a moment he could have swept past as they
accelerated out of the corner.

- Jones

He'd had enough views of Schumacher's pipes and wasn't going to put up with
it and veered over to cut to the inside. I think Schumacher, being still
ahead of him by a several feet, figured Hill was fair game and went to
protect what could be considered his (MS') line.

#44

In article <nGTlg.65588$771.13235@edtnps89>,
jconnors (AT) calcna (DOT) ab.ca.invalid says...

Quote:

Damon and Williams, for whatever reasons, let the matter lie; for which
they should be complimented and considered superior to Michael and
Ferrari who,

Ferrari ????????

Freudian Slip, James?

Dave.

#45

HooDooWitch <hoodoowitch_REM (AT) OVE_hindcottage (DOT) co.uk> wrote in
news

ovf92drk2aftjk0i8ibd0fn0blahb1kd2 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

Quote:

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:05:17 GMT, Ron Burgundy <popematthew (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote:

HooDooWitch <hoodoowitch_REM (AT) OVE_hindcottage (DOT) co.uk> wrote in
news:ai3d9212uo94oan9eaaf6fal00l2rhirjr (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:00:01 GMT, CatharticF1 <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net
wrote:

Had Hill won it would have been a incredible injustice. MS had
dominated Hill that year in all but one race (Suzuka - which was a
fine performance by Damon).

Lemme see ....
Was that dominance down to having better;

1) driving?
2) car?
3) package?
4) fuel blend?
5) 5th gear?
6) black flag myopia?
7) plank wear?
8) refuelling rig?
9) change management?
10) mirrors?

13) software?

Alright I'll bite. Where's 11 and 12?

I thought it was well stinky bait myself ...

11 & 12 were never there in Bennetton's software. Pressing a
combination of buttons on the steering wheel allowed the driver to
scroll down to the obfuscated option 13, revealing an item labelled
"Launch Control" in an era when LC was banned.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to whether they used it or
not, or whether they tried to deliberately obscure its existence from
the FIA. Flavio says they didn't use it. He also said that they hadn't
tampered with their fuel rig, nor had they [as well as other teams]
been using illegal fuel.

1994 was a dark year in F1.

For Formula England

They did everything but ban Schu from racing at
all and still wond the WDC.

But if that accusation were correct, it would have come out in the
preceding 12 years and in any case was irrelevant beyond the race starts.

--
CatharticF1

"What you thought was Freedom is just Greed."

#46

James Connors <jconnors (AT) calcna (DOT) ab.ca.invalid> wrote in
news:nGTlg.65588$771.13235@edtnps89:

Quote:

Doc Knutsen penned the following at 20/06/2006 5:02 AM:

"CatharticF1" <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> skrev i melding
news:Xns97E7ACD198A26eferrariheavennet (AT) 202 (DOT) 83.64.15...

The simple undigestible fact for you all is that Williams should
have told Damon to relax and not make a move that he likely thought
was his only chance and so overplayed.

Rubbish, the whole episode took about five seconds, not possible for
either Williams or Damon to consider the strategy or discuss on team
radio.
Doc

Had Hill won it would have been a incredible injustice. MS had
dominated Hill that year in all but one race (Suzuka - which was a
fine performance by Damon).

Equally rubbish.

If Michael pranged Damon deliberately, it is Michael who thieved
a
World Drivers' Championship - his first - through an incredible
injustice.

Still as articulate and yet pointless as ever James.

Rate the races in that season for me then - tell me which the car/driver
combination with Damon deserved top honours and which with Schu did.

Quote:

Attempting to force the ostensible victim into the role of culprit, in
this circumstance, is intellectually, morally and spiritually corrupt.

Damon was by no measure a better driver, nor had better results, nor was
he more deserving of that title in 1994.

Schumacher deserved the title long before Adelaide.

--
CatharticF1

"What you thought was Freedom is just Greed."

#47

Jim N <jim (AT) fakeemailaddress (DOT) com> wrote in
news:gfaf92leho0oftedn6e9c9uejbre1v3urf (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

Quote:

CatharticF1 <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote:

"Ralph Bergman" <ralph.bergman3 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in
news:449612f5$0$9914$88260bb3 (AT) free (DOT) teranews.com:

"CatharticF1" <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote

You mean like Hill driving into the back of Schu at Monza and
Silverstone the following year?

Describe?

It's self evident - I watched it at the time and on two occasions
Damon made what could be at best judged impetuous and at worst bloody
minded attempts that took both of them off the road. Damon received a
one race suspended ban for the Monza incident. But as he's not the
whipping boy around here that is conveniently forgotten.

Definitely not forgotten here.

To my mind both were very poor overtaking attempts in the 'let me
through or crash' style. Are you claiming they are more, and that
Damon had an agenda in deliberately causing these crashes? Maybe to
give his fellow Brit (although Schumacher's team mate) Johnny Herbert
a couple of easy wins?

Silverstone in particular just seemed like a rush of blood in front of
an expectant home crowd, jumping into less than half a gap.

If you're comparing these moves to Adelaide, I don't think that's
valid. The gaps and speed differentials are vastly different. The move
in Adelaide was valid given how off line Schumacher was, and how much
slower than normal he was travelling. Neither are true of Monza or
Silverstone.

My point is more that had the positions been reversed the pervading view
of them would have been very different. I agree with your assessment:
that they were carelessly ambitious and likely the result of frustration
or a rush of blood. Something which in many people's minds only Damon can
have apparently.

--
CatharticF1

"What you thought was Freedom is just Greed."

#48

CatharticF1 <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net> wrote in
news:Xns97E98967F8663eferrariheavennet (AT) 202 (DOT) 83.64.15:

Quote:

HooDooWitch <hoodoowitch_REM (AT) OVE_hindcottage (DOT) co.uk> wrote in
news

ovf92drk2aftjk0i8ibd0fn0blahb1kd2 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:05:17 GMT, Ron Burgundy
popematthew (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

HooDooWitch <hoodoowitch_REM (AT) OVE_hindcottage (DOT) co.uk> wrote in
news:ai3d9212uo94oan9eaaf6fal00l2rhirjr (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:00:01 GMT, CatharticF1 <eferrari (AT) heaven (DOT) net
wrote:

Had Hill won it would have been a incredible injustice. MS had
dominated Hill that year in all but one race (Suzuka - which was a
fine performance by Damon).

Lemme see ....
Was that dominance down to having better;

1) driving?
2) car?
3) package?
4) fuel blend?
5) 5th gear?
6) black flag myopia?
7) plank wear?
8) refuelling rig?
9) change management?
10) mirrors?

13) software?

Alright I'll bite. Where's 11 and 12?

I thought it was well stinky bait myself ...

11 & 12 were never there in Bennetton's software. Pressing a
combination of buttons on the steering wheel allowed the driver to
scroll down to the obfuscated option 13, revealing an item labelled
"Launch Control" in an era when LC was banned.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to whether they used it or
not, or whether they tried to deliberately obscure its existence from
the FIA. Flavio says they didn't use it. He also said that they
hadn't tampered with their fuel rig, nor had they [as well as other
teams] been using illegal fuel.

1994 was a dark year in F1.

For Formula England

They did everything but ban Schu from racing at
all and still wond the WDC.

But if that accusation were correct, it would have come out in the
preceding 12 years and in any case was irrelevant beyond the race
starts.

Like Schumacher's start at France that year...

--

I'm Ron Burgundy

You stay classy, San Diego.

#49

David Melville wrote:

Quote:

Freudian Slip, James?

Nope. A mistake.

However, since you mention Sigmund let's see what he has to say about
instinct, as in; it's instinctive to drive into someone trying to overtake?

"It is impossible to overlook the extent to which civilization is built
upon a renunciation of instinct."

Found at:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...fre125397.html

#50

James Connors <jconnors (AT) calcna (DOT) ab.ca.nada.invalid> wrote in
news:W%5mg.64939$A8.6710@clgrps12:

Quote:

David Melville wrote:

Freudian Slip, James?

Nope. A mistake.

However, since you mention Sigmund let's see what he has to say
about
instinct, as in; it's instinctive to drive into someone trying to
overtake?

"It is impossible to overlook the extent to which civilization is
built
upon a renunciation of instinct."

... which applies with equal validity to Damon's punting Schumacher off the
following year.

--
CatharticF1

"What you thought was Freedom is just Greed."

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Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994

Formula 1 Formula 1 motor racing discusions (rec.autos.sport.f1)

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 03:06 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 05:19 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 09:17 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 10:38 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 11:31 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 11:40 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-20-2006 , 11:42 PM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-21-2006 , 02:26 AM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-21-2006 , 02:51 AM

Re: Williams - Schumacher cheated in 1994 - 06-21-2006 , 03:07 AM