(corrymartin (AT) gmail (DOT) com) writes:


Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.

If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda Canada
is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada is required
to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not allowed to sell
automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified emissions. An engine that
does not warm up to operating temperature, within a certain time frame, will
not meet the Fed specs. Raise a stink with the dealer, Honda Canada, and
Transport Canada. You paid lots of money to have Honda build a car that
is supposed to meet the Canadian emissions specs.

Look at you warranty booklet, read it carefully. Contact Transport Canada.
Do you live in a province that requires emission tests for licence renewal
(i.e. Ontario, British Columbia)? You may want to tell them Honda has
possibly allowed polluting automobiles to operate on their roads.

3Gee Canadian Hondas (1986 to 1989 Accords) list an optional (hotter)
thermostat (with operation specs [temps etc.]) in the Honda Canadian
workshop manual.

cf005 (AT) FreeNet (DOT) Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmd9ap$ovn$1 (AT) theodyn (DOT) ncf.ca:



It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
limits by a significant amount.

You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
the thermostat is bad.

I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
spring.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes
water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine
in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or
valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through
a heater core.


I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See
pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to
temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even
worse on hybrid civics.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f12/pipe-insulation-grill-16922/

t

Tegger (invalid (AT) invalid (DOT) inv) writes:
Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
(and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for engine
warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not the
provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that exits the
exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test 'program' (driving
test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents, will show high readings.


And the test for stats is the same as it has always been... take the stat
out... hang it in a pot of water... hang in a good thermometer... turn the
heat on... make note of the temps and action of the stat... consult the
factory workshop manuals for the specific details of how the action and
temps are supposed to relate.


At 30 to 50 below in the Yukon, spring is a LONG time away! At 30 to 50
below ya want some fire under your ass. If a threat of snitching gets that
fire sooner, well then, what the hell! :-) :-)

cf005 (AT) FreeNet (DOT) Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmfr8l$fr8$1 (AT) theodyn (DOT) ncf.ca:



Oxygen sensors/AF sensors are active after about 30 seconds from a cold
start. Their internal heaters are the reason why. The 2008 cat is
functional after about the same length of time. Its cheek-to-jowl proximity
to the exhaust ports is why.

It is true that insufficiently warmed-up engines of /any/ year will exhibit
high HC readings (but stunningly low NO numbers!) compared to a fully
warmed-up one, but you MUST realize how stupidly low ALL the readings are
these days. CO, for one, is now non-existent to Ontario's DriveClean, since
its equipment "only" goes to two decimal places. You'll see "0.00%" in that
slot. An uncontrolled engine puts out roughly 4%-10% CO.

A cold engine of 2008 vintage puts out less HC/CO/NO than a fully-warm
engine did in 1991. After the first half-minute, anyway.

I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is
CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.

The US federal EPA says that ambient air is now 57% cleaner in ABSOLUTE
terms than it was in 1970, in spite of a 157% increase in vehicular traffic
from then to now.

If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad
Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at
hand before you make a total fool of yourself.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger (invalid (AT) invalid (DOT) inv) writes:
[snipped... because I've been snipped]


Huffy? I'm not getting huffy.

I implied to him to phone Transport Canada for the _FACTS_. He's
freezin' his fuckin' arse off. Why doesn't the dealer fix his 2008 car?
Are they fools?

Here's a fact... if the engine doesn't warm up... he won't get enough
heat out of the heater, and therefore his defroster won't work properly.

This is illegal in Ontario... it's in the Highway Traffic Act (Ontario).

A 2008 car that won't pass an Ontario Safety Check, because of a bum
defroster, this is almost unheard of.

Possibly another lever for him to use on the 'fools'.

Keep up the good work on your web site.

cf005 (AT) FreeNet (DOT) Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmif4h$8hk$1 (AT) theodyn (DOT) ncf.ca:



Is HE a fool? You're supposed to be responsible for yourself in this
life. You need to do your OWN ass-kicking. If the dealer won't help (the
infrared thermometer is the FIRST step), you call Honda Canada and get a
zone rep involved. You (politely but insistently) kick ass and don't
take "no" for an answer. Honda Canada WILL help if the rep can be
convinced that there's a problem. Honda is HIGHLY protective of its
reputation. Intelligent and reasoned arguments ARE listened to, believe
it or not, even by Big Bad Environment-Destroying Automakers.

What is NOT listened to is trivial whining from unwashed proles who
refuse to back up their gripes with solid evidence that there is in fact
a problem that is not being dealt with with by the franchised dealer.
Retail establishments of all kinds get a LOT of disaffected weirdos with
imagined problems, so it's not surprising that dealers seem to be
treating these poor-heat reports skeptically. If there IS in fact
something wrong, there will eventually be issued a TSB (one of at least
a hundred issued each year) detailing the problem and its fix.

What is it with people today? Nobody wants to do some legwork and just
get stuff fixed. Mistakes and screwups happen. Bad customer service
happens too, just because people are human and are highly defective.
Instead of dealing with reality the real way, everybody now wants to
immediately run to Big Brother Government and get them to whack some
rich guy real hard.

You want to know what's wrong with society today? Look in the mirror.
You're your _own_ last line of defense, and should be, regardless of
what the government-lovers want to see happen.





No kidding. Having been the victim of defective thermostats once or
twice over several decades, I know exactly what you mean.





Have /you, personally/ ever seen any 2008 car fail in such a manner?





The very best "lever" to use on the "fools" is for informed consumers to
do this:
1) have the dealer or some other garage, or the car owner himself, warm
the car up all the way (at least a half-hour of actual driving), then
aim a $75 infrared thermometer at the upper rad hose's outlet at the
head. If the max reading is much less than 205F, then there is a
problem;
2) if there IS a problem and the dealer refuses to fix it, call Honda
Canada at 1-888-946-6329.

When I say I have NEVER seen an engine with proper combustion and a good
thermostat fail to heat up so as to exhibit 205 at the outlet, I
exaggerate not at all.





Way behind on updates due to lack of time. We've hired a couple of new
guys, so I hopefully will have more time in the future.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Robert Barr wrote:
OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree with
the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.

I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the thermostat.

For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was a
definite improvement.

Robert Barr <not (AT) for (DOT) harvest> wrote in
news:gw7jl.16253$yr3.6706 (AT) nlpi068 (DOT) nbdc.sbc.com:



So I'm not just whistling in the wind?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
(...)


A bit of perspective: I was in Advanced Auto mechanics in high
school, and was told the same thing by the shop teacher - that cars were
essentially cleaning urban air. The year?

1975.