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Re: 94 accord, fuel pump not running sometimes when starting
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Re: 94 accord, fuel pump not running sometimes when starting -
12-17-2007
, 11:10 AM
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I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it won't catch. When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the fuel pump doesn't run. |
The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
"II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...
Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
strap. How are they?
<rest of original text snipped>
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#2
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:10:57 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger (AT) tegger (DOT) c0m wrote: : hgoldste (AT) mpcs (DOT) com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in news:1197906337.39292 : @news.queue.to: : : > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running : > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it : > won't catch. : : > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and : > the fuel pump doesn't run. : : : : The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned : to "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU... Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on, and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds) |
If the problem is intermittent and the Main Relay's been checked out OK,
I'd certainly be checking for ground problems. Correct Main Relay, ECU
and ignition operation is heavily dependent on proper grounding.
When did the issue surface? Did it happen all of a sudden? Any rust on
the car? Any recent collision damage?
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: : Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to : body ground strap. How are they? Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different strap |
Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to the
rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot smaller than
the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's often frayed, broken
or missing entirely. That's part of the reason some people have such
trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.
Besides, battery negative goes to the body, not the engine! Battery
positive goes to the starter, which is on the engine. Don't mix them up,
whatever you do!
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(I'm stupid)? I had the timing belt and the radiator hoses changed a few months ago, are either of those attachments the sort that'd have beend disconnected for those services? |
If the thermostat housing was opened up, that's when somebody often
misses the little wire going to that third bolt. Leaving the ECU ground
undone can cause some pretty strange problems.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#3
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:45:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger (AT) tegger (DOT) c0m wrote: : : > Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that : > carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different : > strap : : : : Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to : the rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot : smaller than the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's : often frayed, broken or missing entirely. That's part of the reason : some people have such trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds. |
I should have checked earlier to be sure. It appears your engine ground
goes from valve cover to the left-hand shock tower area, not the rad
support.
You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#4
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Thanks. That has got to be the one on the driver's side from the corner of thevalve cover, goes a few inches over to that tower and then over to the frame. |
That's the one.
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I cleaned those up with no-residue cleaner and did a few tightening/untightening cycles, move the tab around, etc to try to dislodge any gunk. Also did the same to the grounds attached to the intake manifold (driver side, there's an attachment point with two heavyish cables each paired with two thin yellow cables (?)(but it does go to bare metal)(the manual says those are the ECM grounds? What a weird place to bring them?) |
My manual says G101, which is the one under the engine end of the lower rad
hose, which is also the thermostat housing.
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Before I did that though I ohmed out the leads back to the negative battery cable with the cable detached from the battery and they looked ok. *However* the problem was not existent when I started doing this. Another question please: You mentioned another ground over by the temperature housing? Is this on the firewall-side of the engine, passenger side? I couldn't find a ground wire there but I don't think I"m looking in the right place, or I'm not able to see it easily |
It's immediately under the engine end of the lower rad hose. Some cars use
only two bolts on the thermostat housing, with the ground cable attached to
of those two bolts. Hunt around for an unconnected wire around that
location.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#5
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On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:05:18 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger (AT) tegger (DOT) c0m wrote: : You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing. Should I expect any with a standard transmission? |
Don't know. Probably.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#6
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I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running |
Sit quietly in the car with the key in position II. Smack the dash on
the left side of the steering wheel. If the fuel pump is heard to run
for three seconds, the car will now start. It will also keep running
because of the vibration.
Resolder the relay. (don't unbolt it, just slip it out of it's case by
pulling on the harness and prying with a small screwdriver).
I was gonna say Merry Christmas :-)
'Curly'
#7
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: : I'm pushing my luck with you probably. There are three bolts into the thermostat, |
Then you have the usual three bolt style. Two of those bolts are long
and go into the thermostat housing, holding the thermostat cover on. The
third is very short (same head size) and only holds the ground wire to
the thermostat cover.
It is /possible/ Honda used the 3-bolt style of housing from other
vehicles, but never actually put a ground wire to it.
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one of them I can't see but can feel, but man I don't feel or see anything attached or hanging around nearby. |
There ought to be, /if/ I'm remembering correctly from what I have seen.
Lord knows where it might be if it's got messed up with other wiring.
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You wouldn't happen to recall where it came from, would you? If not don't sweat it, |
I don't. I'm thinking /if/ it's there at all (and it might not be), it
should still be hanging around someplace close by. Unless somebody's
taped or cut it off...
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you've given me more to poke around on and I need to put a lot more time into looking around for a loose wire under there before I bug you again, I need to get a mirror and pull it out into the daylight tomorrow. FWIW, thus far I've cleaned and resecured G101 (above) G1, and G2 and G351. I'm not sure how to get at G201 and G301 which the diagrams show stuck up in the front corners around the marker lights. Velly intelesting... |
My manual says G101 is the ECU ground, but then my manual also shows a
2-bolt thermostat cover...
Sometimes there are mistakes in the manuals, so what we're seeing in
them isn't necessarily correct, and I don't have an actual Accord handy
to look at.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#8
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Pardon two very silly questions. If I've gotten everything reasonable the only connections I've yet to clean are the connectors for the ECM and the ground that the manual shows inside the cabin, passenger side, above the ECM. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't at least hit the ECM sockets and the connector with good no-residue contact cleaner in case I can dislodge potential oxidation? |
No reason /not/ to do that...except that Honda does not ground its ECMs
at that location.
And it is very rare for Honda grounds to become compromised which are
inside the passenger compartment.
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If there aren't good reasons not to do this then HTH do folks I get the kickpanels off? |
They're held on with metal friction clips. Grab the panel at its edges
and pull gently to see where it flexes least. The locations of least
flex are the clip locations. Move your fingers there and tug sharply.
The clips will pop out of their holes. Wrap your fingers as far around
the panel as possible to minimize flex as you yank.
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After lifting the weatherstipping and carpet I've got access to it but tugging at the panel doesn't do any good. |
Tug more sharply. Those clips are in there quite solidly.
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Can I pry it off with a flathead screwdriver to pop the kickpanel's plastic anchors out of the body (is there a better way?) |
See above. Fingers only; no screwdrivers. Don't be afraid to give it a
good hard yank. The more suddenly force is applied, the more effective
it will be.
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: : Sometimes there are mistakes in the manuals, so what we're seeing : in them isn't necessarily correct, and I don't have an actual : Accord handy to look at. At least part of the problem here is relying on my descriptions. I'm only slightly better with cars than I am with household plumbing, and that's not saying much. |
If I had actual hands-on experience with this model, we'd probably have
this fixed by now, but I don't. A suggestion: Go to a local U-Pull
wrecking yard. Find a copy of your model there. Inspect--with a bright
flashlight and a mirror--the same area of your car on the wreck. A
wrecking yard excursion will also allow you to study without penalty how
plastic trim panels come off.
You can purchase fairly inexpensively an extensible inspection mirror at
any auto parts place, such as AutoZone, Kragen, NAPA...
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
#9
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