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Re: Is the compensation number accurate or misleading?
Honda automobiles Honda automobiles. (rec.autos.makers.honda)
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Re: Is the compensation number accurate or misleading? -
12-20-2008
, 12:43 PM
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"Tim" <jmeth111 (AT) yahoo (DOT) ca> wrote in message news:c4e98$494d081b$cef8ac46$10280 (AT) TEKSAVVY (DOT) COM... So basically, this $70/hour number is including the health care costs of twice as many retires and their families as there are current workers. Plus the amount that the auto companies are currently paying in pensions for twice the amount of retirees as there are current employees. Of course they aren't paying the pensions of current employees now. I doubt that is correct. Generally pension costs are accrued for current employees and put into a trust, so they are not paying pension costs for those already retired, but they are paying into the pension fund trust for those who are currently working. However, one problem is that if the pension fund suffers investment losses, then GM would have to make up the difference. Conversely if the fund is doing better than expected in its investments, the company can reduce or skip contributions. But apparently the GM pension fund is doing OK because of its conservative investment strategy (probably bonds), and GM says it does not plan to add any money to the fund for the next three or four years. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/business/25auto.html The health care cost for retirees is more complicated, and you can read about it in the above article. Note that anyone over 62 is eligible for Medicare, but the GM health care plan is way over the top compared to what most retired Americans have available to them. |
#2
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I have no idea what "fair" is when it comes to wages. Wages are based on supply and demand. If fairness is comparing UAW wages to others who do similar labor, then UAW workers would be making a lot less. |
years from 1969 to 1980. The first 5 years there, I worked at Ford's Wayne
Assembly Plant, which of course was a union job. The wages were very good
for that time, and I had no trouble getting what I wanted in the way of
most toys and needs. I left there and went to work for a large retail
nursery chain that was growing and expanding all up and down the east coast.
Even after 2 promotions to top assistant store manager, I still wasn't
making as much as I did at a union job. The store I managed was a 2A store,
meaning it grossed over $2.5M per year (pretty good chunk of change for
1976!). The demand for product was there, and so was the supply, but the
wages weren't. Is that to say the wages were unfair? Not really- it was
still a pretty good living. "Fair" to me would be a wage that would allow a
family to have the basic necessities, and a few perks, without going so
deeply into debt that they'd never get out. Otherwise, you might as well
"sell your soul to the company store" as the old song went. A lot of the
problem today (IMHAWO) is that everyone wants what they want, and they want
it NOW! If that means maxing out 4 or 5 credit cards, so be it. If that
means getting a mortgage on a home Bill Gates couldn't afford, don't come
crying to me when the bottom falls out. As luck (and research) would have
it, I managed to put pretty decent money into my 401k at the last company I
worked and build myself an OK nest egg. I'm not rich by any means, not even
in the well-to-do category, but at age 62, I've managed to pay off my
mortgage (1900 sq. ft. home) and my vehicle (2002 Escape) and have no credit
card debt. I'm certainly no financial wizard, just a retired IS guy. But I
think if I can do it, most people can. Yes, I went through some lean years
(repossessed vehicle and homeless for a few months), but that's all behind
me now. It can be done, and you don't have to have a $100K a year job to do
it (unless, of course, you're spending $125K a year).
Sorry for the rant- that's just the way I see it.
SC Tom
#3
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"Fair" to me would be a wage that would allow a family to have the basic necessities, and a few perks, without going so deeply into debt that they'd never get out. |
Federal minimum wage is a joke, but dishwasher should not make as much as a
skilled machinist or doctor.
#4
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"SC Tom" <s... (AT) tom (DOT) net> wrote in message *"Fair" to me would be a wage that would allow a family to have the basic necessities, and a few perks, without going so deeply into debt that they'd never get out. I sort of agree, but some skill and responsibility should go with that. *The Federal minimum wage is a joke, but dishwasher should not make as much asa skilled machinist or doctor. |
collapsing all trust of GM.
Actually he should pay back old wages and bonuses for the last few
years he robbed
#5
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"SC Tom" <s... (AT) tom (DOT) net> wrote in message "Fair" to me would be a wage that would allow a family to have the basic necessities, and a few perks, without going so deeply into debt that they'd never get out. I sort of agree, but some skill and responsibility should go with that. The Federal minimum wage is a joke, but dishwasher should not make as much as a skilled machinist or doctor. |
collapsing all trust of GM.
Actually he should pay back old wages and bonuses for the last few
years he robbed
#6
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"SC Tom" <sc (AT) tom (DOT) net> wrote in message "Fair" to me would be a wage that would allow a family to have the basic necessities, and a few perks, without going so deeply into debt that they'd never get out. I sort of agree, but some skill and responsibility should go with that. The Federal minimum wage is a joke, but dishwasher should not make as much as a skilled machinist or doctor. |
skilled trades unless the dishwasher applied himself, got a better or more
education in a particular field, and changed jobs. Of course, that's where
the skill part comes in, and with that new job would come more
responsibility for his own actions (which seems to be missing in American
life now). After leaving the assembly (union) job, each of my new ones
required more education and skill, and definitely more responsibility. The
IS position I retired from required the most of all, but I still didn't earn
as much as an assembly line worker at a U.S. automaker's unionized plant.
But that was my decision to leave that job, so I can't blame them for what I
don't make. Hey, that's the American way- get as much as you can, and if you
don't want to learn a skill, join a union.
And yes, the minimum wage is pathetic. A 40 hour week would keep a SINGLE
person below the poverty level, much less a family.
SC Tom
#7
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On 20 Dec, 21:01, Tim <jmeth... (AT) yahoo (DOT) ca> wrote: Mark A wrote: "Tim" <jmeth... (AT) yahoo (DOT) ca> wrote in message news:e40bd$494d5560$cef8ac46$24595 (AT) TEKSAVVY (DOT) COM... Trade unions just make the equation one employer negotiator, one employee negotiator. What could be fairer? Union negotiation of pay negates the reality that some people are better employees than others in terms of productivity and quality of work, and that they should be paid more. When you have a union that negotiates pay based on seniority, then there is no incentive for an employee to work harder or improve the quality of their work. I thought trained monkeys could do these jobs. They do |
#8
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The trouble is, for every 1000 GM cars, there are far more fall-outs than per 1000 Toyotas. The parts last longer on a whole. So, Toyota is putting the money into better parts. And enough profit so they don't have to go running to the government with their hands out. |
#9
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Pension plans and healthcare plans are two different animals. * What was said about the pension plan is basically correct but GMs healthcare plan is a current business expense. GM is self-insured and thus is eligible for Medicare reimbursement for each retiree that is 65 or over. * * Every retiree MUST sign up for Medicare at age 65, opt for, and pay for Part B out of their SS check. "Mark A" <some... (AT) someone (DOT) com> wrote in message news:2J83l.10420$dc4.8265 (AT) bignews2 (DOT) bellsouth.net... "Tim" <jmeth... (AT) yahoo (DOT) ca> wrote in message news:c4e98$494d081b$cef8ac46$10280 (AT) TEKSAVVY (DOT) COM... So basically, this $70/hour number is including the health care costs of twice as many retires and their families as there are current workers. Plus the amount that the auto companies are currently paying in pensions for twice the amount of retirees as there are current employees. Of course they aren't paying the pensions of current employees now. I doubt that is correct. Generally pension costs are accrued for current employees and put into a trust, so they are not paying pension costs for those already retired, but they are paying into the pension fund trust for those who are currently working. However, one problem is that if the pension fund suffers investment losses, then GM would have to make up the difference. Conversely if the fund is doing better than expected in its investments, the company can reduce or skip contributions. But apparently the GM pension fund is doing OK because of its conservative investment strategy (probably bonds), and GM says it does not plan to add any money to the fund for the next three or four years. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/business/25auto.html The health care cost for retirees is more complicated, and you can read about it in the above article. Note that anyone over 62 is eligible for Medicare, but the GM health care plan is way over the top compared to what most retired Americans have available to them.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
1989-1998 240sx tutorials (91-94 unless indicated) :
========================================
A
bbreviations
AIV removal(PAIR
valve)
Air
Regulator
Alignment
Alternator
removal
Needs work
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/256470]Antenna Install[/
url]
Automatic
transmission-1991-1994-FSM
Battery
terminal replacement
Battery FAQ
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=253102]Belts-changing[/
url]Needs work
Brakes-1991-1994-
FSM
Brakes-Bleeder
screw
Brakes-replace rear
pads
Brakes-replace rear
rotors
Brake master
cylinder replacement
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=272469]Brake light[/
url]
Buying
guide-1989-1998
Cam
Alignment(1991-1998)
Catalytic converter
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/220791]Cleaning Detailing
[/
url]
Clutch master
cylinder
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/160195]Clutch-replacing[/
url] (no pictures)
Clutch-1991-1994-
FSM
Codes:
retrieving
and reading(1991-1994)
Codes:
retrieving & reading(1995-1998)
Codes: retieving
&
reading(1989-90 SOHC)
Code 34
detonation/knock sensor
Compression test
methodology
Computer codes:
reading
Control
arm-front lower control arm replacement
Coolant system-
general
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=220948]Coolant change[/
url]
Coolant-
Temperature sensor
Crankshaft position
sensor
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/157923]CV boot replacement
[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/228752]Dash removal
[/
url]
Defogger-rear
defroster(1989-1998)
Detonation
sensor/
knock sensor
Differential-
aftermarket install
Differential oil
change
Distributor
see Timing
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/357786]Distributor timing
[/
url]
Dist. timing
trouble-
shoot
Door-
hinge sags Needs work
Door latch
troubleshooting(Driver's door)
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/253736]Door Panel removal
[/
url]
Engine-
Fuel_emission-1991-1994-FSM
Engine
Removal 1991-98
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/312528]ECU-serial numbers
[/
url]
ECU- Tuning
Electronic help
Exhaust manifold
removal
Factory service
manual-1991-1994 Incomplete-see link in my signature
Factory service manual
1989 best
Factory service
manual-1989-1990
Factory service
manual-1995
Factory service
manual-1998
Fender brace
install
Fiberglassing
Flooding
Freeze plug
(expansion)
Fuel filter
replacement
Fuel injector
replacement
Fuel Injector Leak
test
Fuel pressure
regulator
Fuel Pressure specs(see fuel pressure reg. article 34/43 psi)
Fuel pump
install
Fuel Pump install
(s14)
Fuel pump
Needs work
Fuel pump kill
switch
Fuse & Relay
Locations
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/216236]Ground kit[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/159907]Ground-checking[/
url]
Hatch-
water leak
Headlight
troubleshooting
Helicoil
Idle-
stalling at stop lights
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/254123]Idle adjustment[/
url]
IACV AAC
cleaning
& electrical trouble-shooting
Ignition lock/
switch
Intake manifold good article
Intake-AEM
install
on 1997
knock
sensor/Detonation sensor
Light
bulb replacement-dash
Leak down test-
FUEL
Light bulb- S14
Climate control
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/254283]MAF-cleaning
[/
url]
Master cylinder
(brake) replacement
Master cylinder
brake bleeder kit
Oil pump
inspection
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/275181]Oil pressure sensor
[/
url]
Oxygen sensor
PCV
Paint
codes
l
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=142280]PCV-Location[/
url]
Power steering-
hose replacement
Power steering-rebuild for
1995
Power steering
pump-
removal/replacement
Power steering
system-bleeding
[url=http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp]Relays-theory
[/
url]
Radiator
Radio
harness wire colours-89-98
S
eat upgrade
Specifications
(1991-1994)
Stalling-at stop
lights
Starting -hard
start
when engine warm
Starting-hard start
when engine cold
Starter trouble-
shooting-Engine won't turn over
Steering-also see power steering
Steering wheel
removal
1990 steering rack replacement
Steering-rack
bushing replacement
Steering-Tie rod
removal
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=289636]Steering-tie rod
[/
url]
Steering-tie rod/
rack angle
Stereo Faq
see
radio
Stripped bolt
remedy
Stripped bolt remedy
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=247358]Stud replacement
[/
url]
Subframe
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/242578]Subrame(1995-1998)
[/
url]
[url=http://zilvia.net/f/chat/165043-bushings.html]Subframe bushings
[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/11638]Suspension-misc[/
url]
Suspension: Front Struts
Suspension: Rear shocks
[url=http://www.nicoclub.com/articles.php?id=212392]Suspensiion-Sway
bar end link, Tension control rod, Control arm bushings(all front)[/
url]
Suspension: front lower control arm replacement
Suspension-Rear
ball joint
Suspension-Ball joint replacement video
Suspension-
tension control rod
Suspension: Rear sway bar
T
emperature sensor-coolant
Thermostat
[url=http://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/
throttle_position_sensor_adjustm.htm]Throttle position sensor(TPS)[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=330774]Tie rod removal
[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/358264]Timing Light guide
[/
url]
[url=http://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/timing.htm]Timing-adjusting[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/357786]Timing-Distributor
[/
url]
Dist. timing
trouble-
shoot
Timing Chain Rattle
(1991-1998)
Timing chain
rattle
(SOHC)(1989-90)
Timing chain install (SOHC)
Timing chain
replacement(SOHC) best
Timing Chain
(DOHC) Incomplete
Tires
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=291830]Tire chains[/
url]
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/358025]Top Dead Center[/
url]
Transmission oil
change
Transmission
Vacuum
diagrams
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/255646]Vacuum Pump Leak[/
url]
Valve removal/
seal replace
VIN-
reading/
decoding
Water
pump
replacement
Water pump
(1995-1998)
Wheels
Wheel stud
replacement
Wheel stud
replacement2
Wheel bearing
replacement-rear
Windshield wiper
noise fix
Window-repairing
amp
(1989-1995)
Window-repairing
power windows(1996-1998)
[url=http://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/power_windows.htm]Window-stuck
[/
url]
Window-replace
motor
1995-98
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=251576]Wiring diagrams
[/
url]
****CUSTOM INSTALLS************************************
Air intake install
Air
Intake install-S14-(AEM)
Air
Intake-Custom S14
Brake
upgrade-240sx to 300zx
Clutch
install
Fan-electric wiring
Fan-wiring
Fan-electric wiring
Fan
install-
electric for s14
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/240404]Fiberglassing [/
url]
Header Intall
[url=http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/206434]Hood pin install[/
url]
LSD(limited
slip differential) install
multichecker
Nitrous oxide-direct port wet kit 1990 240sx
Painting-
headlight
housing
Sound
system intall 1995 240sx
Suspension-coilover conversion
Swap-
auto
to 5speed s14
Turbo-1989
240sx
Turbo
1990 240sx
Note: People are just sharing their experience in these articles/
tutorials. The authors are not experts. Always refer to factory
service manual for safety and expert opinion.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Trusting your life to something you read on
the
internet is just plain stupid. Get corroboration from a more
reliable
source, use your common sense, don't get yourself killed, and don't
come crying to us if you do
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