Re: Import owners are to blame for the recession

#31

"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:lGz%k.3467$R43.2644 (AT) newsfe08 (DOT) iad...
You can't include the F150 in any discussion of passenger vehicles. Being
an expert on the automobile market, you know why.

Well, since I am not an expert on the automobile market, tell me why. It
seems to me that F150 are tailored mostly for people who buy them as
passenger vehicles that can occasionally haul something and occasionally
tow something. Super Duties are targeted to the real work truck market.

Ed

Maybe we move in different worlds. Most that I see are loaded up with tools,
mowers or lumber.

#32

On Dec 9, 2:00*pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

Quote:

You must be referring to those intelligent people that prefer GM vehicles..
GM offers more vehicles that get 30 MPG or more than ANY other manufacturer.

GM offers more models that get 30 MPG highway. Toyota sells more
vehicles that get over 30 MPG highway than GM.

Toyota sells more vehicles that get over 40 MPG highway and 30 MPG
city, too.

Quote:

The full size pickups from both GM and Ford get better fuel mileage than do
the Tundra and Triton, as well. * I guess that is why today more buys chose
GM vehicles than from ANY other manufacture. * *LOL

Toyota sells more cars in the US than GM.

Jeff

Quote:

acd" <po... (AT) manlymail (DOT) net> wrote in message

news:34bfcdfa-8d30-45e6-b5d8-42228652ca6b (AT) l33g2000pri (DOT) googlegroups.com...

Intelligent people buy quality. *They don't buy irrelevant pieces of
shit that get bad gas mileage.

#33

On Dec 9, 2:17*pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

Quote:

You seem to be confused, buyer have always CHOSEN to buy what they buy. *The
Ford F150 has been, for thirty one years and is still today, the number one
selling vehicle in the US. *The F150 has always sold for the most part at a
rate nearly twice that of the best selling car.

Yet, this year, Toyota sold about 400,000 Camries, and Ford sold about
500,000 F-series trucks. I suspect that Ford actually sold fewer
F-150s than Toyota sold Camries this year.

Quote:

* While Toyota had to shut
down its brand new Tundra plant built by the taxpayers of Texas, because of
dismal sales, Ford had to add two shifts to one of its F150 plants and a
second shift to another.

While it shut down other F-150 plants as well as other plants. The
Michigan 3 are cutting jobs.

Jeff

Quote:

"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpy... (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com> wrote in message

news

bdtj45ir8eaqs6160bn9jja3k95fmaf4a (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...

Thus spake buydomes... (AT) usa (DOT) com :

If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
and rollin right now. *Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
manufacturing over here either. *GM employs 130,000 in the United
States. *Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. *Most of the
import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
engineers. *The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
that buying their car is an investment in this country. *I say we buy
from the Big Three and take our economy back.

Right. *Like I want a Burb or an F150. *Detroit pissed away their
survival years ago when they decided that they could sell low mileage,
high margin trucks. *Now they're paying the price for looking at today
and ignoring tomorrow.

#34

On Dec 9, 2:54*pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

Quote:

Anyone who buys an extended warty is a fool.

Industry statistics prove the fact that only around 1% of ALL the extended
warranties sold in the US EVER pay out more in total than the premium paid
to buy it and the deductible that apply, period.

The fact is every manufacturer today foreign or domestic is building good
dependable, long lasting, vehicles that can easily be run to 150K or more,
trouble free.

Can you back your statistics with real evidence? I totally agree that
extended warranties are a waste of money, but I don't beleive your
made-up numbers.

Jeff

Quote:

"Jeff Findley" <jeff.find... (AT) ugs (DOT) nojunk.com> wrote in message

news:9a60d$493ec6ff$927a2cda$28670 (AT) FUSE (DOT) NET...

"trailer" <du... (AT) dum (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:ghm9ra$ctu$1 (AT) news (DOT) motzarella.org...
I would like to purchase an American car when I shop again.

However, I feel like, when buying American, 'You pays your money, you
takes
your chances'.

That's what extended warranties are for. *That and "American" cars with
Japanese engines and transmissions, like my wife's Pontiac Vibe (a Toyota
Matrix in Pontiac drag). *I got a GM supplier discount on the car too..
;-)

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." *-- Freeman Dyson

#35

Do your own search of the US Department of Commerce site and see for
yourself.

"AJL" <nomail (AT) fakeaddress (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

"AJL" wrote:

My Chevy Suburban was made in Mexico. My Honda was made in the USA.
Both have parts made all over the world. What exactly is an American
car?

As to the Chevy Suburban, Honda, comparison the Suburban uses 85% American
parts and the Honda uses far less and

I doubt the poster owned both

I wonder why you would use a winky when you call me a liar?

And I'll bet your parts estimates are made up....

#36

One can easily prove it to themselves. Go to old cars shows around the
country as I do and you will see plenty of domestic and European cars but
rarely if ever a Japanese car from that period. If you do it is not a
regular sedan but a low mileage 'Z' or an RX7 on occasion. I've seen more
Italian cars than Jap cars and we all know they were 'great' cars LOL

<clare (AT) snyder (DOT) on.ca> wrote

Quote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:39:48 -0500, "C. E. White"
cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote:

clare (AT) snyder (DOT) on.ca> wrote in message
news:j5vqj41o7arcqsrm7p3q0s6mvi6im9i45s (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:10:20 -0500, "C. E. White"
cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote:

Try to find an early ford Escort on the road? I'm talking the first
generation escort from North America.

You mean a 1981 Escort? I'll find you one of those if you can find me
a Starlet from the same year.

How about a Chevy Monza, Vega, or Chevette, or a Buick SkyHawk?
How about an "Ominous Omni" or "Horendous Horizon"

HUndreds of thousands sold - allmost all now scrapped.

Vega: 71-77 - I found 12 on Autotrader
Monza: 75-80 - I found 5 on Autotrader
Chevette: 76-87 - I found only 1 on Autotrader
Corolla 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 81 and an 85)
Crown 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Cressida 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Tercel 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Celica 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 84 for parts and an 87
convertible)
Corona 71-87 - I found one on Autotrader

How many Corollas from the 70's do you see? How about Coronas, Crowns
or Cressidas? When was the last time you saw a first generation Celica
or Tercel? The first Toyota any of my friends owned was a 1st
generation Celica. It was a POS. It didn't last 11 years. Even in NC
it rusted away in less than 8 years. I can't imagine that cars as
crappy as that could last 30 years in Canada. In the late 70's I rear
ended a Corolla with my Jensen-Healey. The rear of the Corolla folded
up like a cheap suitcase. I drove the Jensen-Healey home with minor
hood damage.

And how many first generation Celicas were sold in North Carolina? In
all of the USA? And in all of North America????

VERY few. And what 1970 vehicle did NOT rust away in 8 years? Only
those made and sold in SIGNIFICANT quantities have much of a survivor
base.

In general, my biggest problems with Toyotas is not reliability, it is
the poor ergonomics of the cars, the crummy paint jobs, and high
maitenance costs.

My Toyotas cost me less to maintain than my Chrysler products of the
same time period. By a significant percentage. My corolla (1980) had
one body job and I sold it in1992 when I bought my first Ford Aerostar
(a 1989 model) My 1981 Tercel left the fold at about the same time
with 398,000km on it. The guy I sold it to scrapped it 5 years later
with well over 600,000km on it. The rear fenders had been
fibre-glassed back together twice in it's lifetime. (17 years)

I am a large person and everytime I get into a
Toyota, I hit something with my arms, or knees, or head. If I check
the specs at Consumer Reports, the numbers invariably look good, yet
when I actually sit in one of the cars, there is always something in
the way.

I'm 6'2". The corolla and tercel were both snug, but comfortable. More
than I could say for my previous Mitsubishi/Dodge Colt/Gallant..

And the corolla is significantly larger today than the old TE72 was.

My SO's RAV4 is a perfect example. Something that large
should have plenty of front leg room, and the specs say it does, but
the truth is the front seat is tight as heck.

Ever check out the legroom in a Chevy Astro Van????

My older son refuses to
ride in the front of my Sister's RAV4 it is so uncomfortable (he has
long legs). The console placement gives me fits. It restricts the foot
space to the right of the acceleration pedal, and makes for an
uncomfortable long trip. Plus the seat are pure crap. No support,
flat, etc. And don't get me started on the control layout. They should
use the cruise control thingy in human factors classes as the must
f&*ked up control device every inflicted on mankind. Whoever came up
with that design should be sent to the salt mines.

How about the cruise control on a PT Cruiser?????

Just this morning I was behind a Generation 2 Camry and was amazed
by
how nice it looked. Most old Camrys look like s*&t. This one had a
temporary license tag and an out of state dealer logo on the trunk
lid. I suspect it had been repainted (it was two tone, with the
lower
half silver - never saw one with a paint job like that before). And
amazingly, it wasn't even smoking. It was a rare sight. I am more
used to old Toyotas like the ones my neighbors own - faded paint,
and
smoking on start-up.

TwoTone silver and grey was a COMMON pain job on the early Camry up
here in Canada. Several other 2 tone treatments as well.

This one was white on top and silver on the bottom. The paint job
looked like new.

The Big 3 are unwilling to take steps to restore confidence in
their
products. Look what VW and Hyundai did when their was the
perception
of quality issues with their products; they offered extra-long
warranties on the power train.

Geez, why would I want to have the cost of crap hidden by bogus
extended warranties. Even if they cover the failures, you still have
the inconveniences of having the POS hauled into the shop and losing
the use of the car for a day, or if it is a VW, weeks. No matter how
mediocre I think Toyotas are, I'd pick one over a VW any day, unless
the VW dealer delivers two for the price of one and guarantees one
will always be available during a 150k warranty period.

Ed
Diito for Mercedes and BMW (or Cadillac))

#37

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

Quote:

"AJL" <nomail (AT) fakeaddress (DOT) com> wrote in message

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

"AJL" wrote:

My Chevy Suburban was made in Mexico. My Honda was made in the USA.
Both have parts made all over the world. What exactly is an American
car?

As to the Chevy Suburban, Honda, comparison the Suburban uses 85% American
parts and the Honda uses far less and

I doubt the poster owned both

I wonder why you would use a winky when you call me a liar?

And I'll bet your parts estimates are made up....

Do your own search of the US Department of Commerce site...

I did. It says you are a liar... :-) :-) :-)

#38

Once again, your ability to come to conclusions is broken. There could be
another reason why you see more domestic & European cars at these shows.

Hurry. Think about it fast, before you lose your ability to spell, like you
do every day after lunch, when you begin slamming whatever it is you drink,
Uncle Jemima.

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote

Quote:

One can easily prove it to themselves. Go to old cars shows around the
country as I do and you will see plenty of domestic and European cars but
rarely if ever a Japanese car from that period. If you do it is not a
regular sedan but a low mileage 'Z' or an RX7 on occasion. I've seen
more Italian cars than Jap cars and we all know they were 'great' cars
LOL

clare (AT) snyder (DOT) on.ca> wrote in message
news:nbjtj45dk7in5j9ddv9aap8kf4eh19iv2l (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:39:48 -0500, "C. E. White"
cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote:

clare (AT) snyder (DOT) on.ca> wrote in message
news:j5vqj41o7arcqsrm7p3q0s6mvi6im9i45s (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:10:20 -0500, "C. E. White"
cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote:

Try to find an early ford Escort on the road? I'm talking the first
generation escort from North America.

You mean a 1981 Escort? I'll find you one of those if you can find me
a Starlet from the same year.

How about a Chevy Monza, Vega, or Chevette, or a Buick SkyHawk?
How about an "Ominous Omni" or "Horendous Horizon"

HUndreds of thousands sold - allmost all now scrapped.

Vega: 71-77 - I found 12 on Autotrader
Monza: 75-80 - I found 5 on Autotrader
Chevette: 76-87 - I found only 1 on Autotrader
Corolla 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 81 and an 85)
Crown 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Cressida 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Tercel 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Celica 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 84 for parts and an 87
convertible)
Corona 71-87 - I found one on Autotrader

How many Corollas from the 70's do you see? How about Coronas, Crowns
or Cressidas? When was the last time you saw a first generation Celica
or Tercel? The first Toyota any of my friends owned was a 1st
generation Celica. It was a POS. It didn't last 11 years. Even in NC
it rusted away in less than 8 years. I can't imagine that cars as
crappy as that could last 30 years in Canada. In the late 70's I rear
ended a Corolla with my Jensen-Healey. The rear of the Corolla folded
up like a cheap suitcase. I drove the Jensen-Healey home with minor
hood damage.

And how many first generation Celicas were sold in North Carolina? In
all of the USA? And in all of North America????

VERY few. And what 1970 vehicle did NOT rust away in 8 years? Only
those made and sold in SIGNIFICANT quantities have much of a survivor
base.

In general, my biggest problems with Toyotas is not reliability, it is
the poor ergonomics of the cars, the crummy paint jobs, and high
maitenance costs.

My Toyotas cost me less to maintain than my Chrysler products of the
same time period. By a significant percentage. My corolla (1980) had
one body job and I sold it in1992 when I bought my first Ford Aerostar
(a 1989 model) My 1981 Tercel left the fold at about the same time
with 398,000km on it. The guy I sold it to scrapped it 5 years later
with well over 600,000km on it. The rear fenders had been
fibre-glassed back together twice in it's lifetime. (17 years)

I am a large person and everytime I get into a
Toyota, I hit something with my arms, or knees, or head. If I check
the specs at Consumer Reports, the numbers invariably look good, yet
when I actually sit in one of the cars, there is always something in
the way.

I'm 6'2". The corolla and tercel were both snug, but comfortable. More
than I could say for my previous Mitsubishi/Dodge Colt/Gallant..

And the corolla is significantly larger today than the old TE72 was.

My SO's RAV4 is a perfect example. Something that large
should have plenty of front leg room, and the specs say it does, but
the truth is the front seat is tight as heck.

Ever check out the legroom in a Chevy Astro Van????

My older son refuses to
ride in the front of my Sister's RAV4 it is so uncomfortable (he has
long legs). The console placement gives me fits. It restricts the foot
space to the right of the acceleration pedal, and makes for an
uncomfortable long trip. Plus the seat are pure crap. No support,
flat, etc. And don't get me started on the control layout. They should
use the cruise control thingy in human factors classes as the must
f&*ked up control device every inflicted on mankind. Whoever came up
with that design should be sent to the salt mines.

How about the cruise control on a PT Cruiser?????

Just this morning I was behind a Generation 2 Camry and was amazed
by
how nice it looked. Most old Camrys look like s*&t. This one had a
temporary license tag and an out of state dealer logo on the trunk
lid. I suspect it had been repainted (it was two tone, with the
lower
half silver - never saw one with a paint job like that before). And
amazingly, it wasn't even smoking. It was a rare sight. I am more
used to old Toyotas like the ones my neighbors own - faded paint,
and
smoking on start-up.

TwoTone silver and grey was a COMMON pain job on the early Camry up
here in Canada. Several other 2 tone treatments as well.

This one was white on top and silver on the bottom. The paint job
looked like new.

The Big 3 are unwilling to take steps to restore confidence in
their
products. Look what VW and Hyundai did when their was the
perception
of quality issues with their products; they offered extra-long
warranties on the power train.

Geez, why would I want to have the cost of crap hidden by bogus
extended warranties. Even if they cover the failures, you still have
the inconveniences of having the POS hauled into the shop and losing
the use of the car for a day, or if it is a VW, weeks. No matter how
mediocre I think Toyotas are, I'd pick one over a VW any day, unless
the VW dealer delivers two for the price of one and guarantees one
will always be available during a 150k warranty period.

Ed
Diito for Mercedes and BMW (or Cadillac))

#39

Not quite! That may be your opinion but it is confused opinion The
'designers' ARE engineers, as are the chassis designer that must put it
together and they work as a team, not individually. I know my engineering
degree is in metallurgy and I worked in industry for thirty years.

You are correct about meeting cost goals. Not as you suggest, to make it
'cheaper' but to build it cost effectively, to meet the market goals for
that particular vehicle. Obviously a Corolla does not compete in the same
market as a Lexus, nor does a car meet the same requirements as a truck, get
real.

<clare (AT) snyder (DOT) on.ca> wrote

Quote:

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:27:14 -0800 (PST), Jeff <jeff.utz (AT) gmail (DOT) com
wrote:

On Dec 9, 2:03 pm, "80 Knight" <nospam> wrote:
"acd" <po... (AT) manlymail (DOT) net> wrote in message

news:34bfcdfa-8d30-45e6-b5d8-42228652ca6b (AT) l33g2000pri (DOT) googlegroups.com...
On Dec 7, 1:01 pm, buydomes... (AT) usa (DOT) com wrote:

If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
and rollin right now. Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
manufacturing over here either. GM employs 130,000 in the United
States. Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. Most of the
import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
engineers. The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
that buying their car is an investment in this country. I say we buy
from the Big Three and take our economy back.

I don't buy crappy cars made by ACCOUNTANTS. I buy cars made by
ENGINEERS.

Actually, the cars are designed by engineers and made by factory
workers.

Cars are designed by designers, and then made buildable by engineers.
THEN the accountants get involved and tell the engineers how many
dollars they need to take out of the product before it will be built.
Between squeezing the suppliers and cheapening whatever they can get
away with, they get the production cost down to the target set by the
accountants.

Usually it is several rounds of thrust and parrie before it is all
over.

#40

Do your own homework

"Jeff" <jeff.utz (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

On Dec 9, 10:35 am, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

Quote:

You as an American taxpayer should consider the fact Japanese corporations
do not pay US federal Corporate income taxes on the profits earned in the
US. Chrysler, on the other hand, when it was a German Corporation DID pay
US federal Corporate income taxes on the profits made on the Chryslers
sold
in the US. Tax laws between the US and Europe and the US and Japan are
not the same.

As to the Chevy Suburban, Honda, comparison the Suburban uses 85% American
parts and the Honda uses far less and I doubt the poster owned both

Please provide real evidence that the Japanese companies don't pay
taxes in the US.

Jeff

Quote:

.com> wrote in messagenews

rnoj4d31qcb74t6u0ehli4gep3u79893l (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
"Marko" <tr... (AT) army (DOT) mil> wrote:

"AJL" wrote:

My Chevy Suburban was made in Mexico. My Honda was made in the USA.
Both have parts made all over the world. What exactly is an American
car?

Honda is japanese company registered in Japan...

So when Chrysler was a German company registered in Germany it wasn't
an American car?