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D&R Contemplating 2007 Move To CCWS
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#41
 
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Re: D&R Contemplating 2007 Move To CCWS -
11-29-2006
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It was a novelty when one Arie or whatever his name was won the Indy 500 but when it happened about ten times in a row American fans decided that NASCAR was more worth their attention. Foreign drivers killed open wheel racing in America. *Everybody with half a lick of sense knows that and everybody who disagrees is just working on their own agenda.I am so fucking sick of this ignorant, xenophobic and borderline racist attitude that permeates racing fans in this country. I want to see the best drivers compete regardless of where their parents decided to give birth. It's a round world and a global economy last time I checked. God forbid what'll happen when some furriner (Montoya?) wins a Neckcab race. Will y'all be bringin' yer white crosses and have a lynching? If furrin' drivers are what drove racist redneck morons away from OWR, then I'm all for it. I thought the good ol' U S and A was the "land of opportunity"...I think it's great that drivers from around the world want to compete here. If you are too stupid to pronounce or spell names like Luyendyke or Fittipaldi or Castroneves then maybe you should have repeated 6th grade a few more times. There are foreign drivers that have a better command of the english language than say, AJ Foyt or any number of old school Nascar drivers. They certainly have more tact and class than Mr. Foyt. The 2006 Iddy 500 grid had 14 "furriners" in it. If it weren't for them, there wouldn't be a full field. It's ridiculous and moronic views such as yours, Mr. Ricky Bobby, that contribute to the dumbing down of America. Nobody cares about six cylinders or eight cylinders or ten cylinders or twelve cyliners or turborchargers or boost valves as much as they care about who is driving the car.Seems to me it's a contest of man and machine. If it's all about the driver, then why don't they make it a 200 lap foot race around indy? * Does anyone really think that Brack is a big name in America today?Is Buddy Rice a household name? He's a 'merecan driver innie? Think he won the Iddy 5 hunnert too..That throws your baseless argument out of the water Go back to the trailer park that spawned you. I'm sure there's an episode of "Cops" on....who knows...they might be filming live right next door to you. |
attitude shown in this post that has done more to damage open wheel
racing than any split. The elitist want open wheel to be their personal
play toy and then complain that the numbers are not what like they were
in the past. The glory days of Indy was because of the same fans that
are now looked down upon by the elitist snobs in open wheel. The small
minority of racing fans has control of American open wheel and the vast
majoritry of racing fans have moved on to NASCAR or other forms of
racing. It wasn't the split that has caused the problems in open wheel
racing it is telling the main fan base that they are insignificant
pieces of inbred trash not worth listening to. Why do so many more
sponsors go to nascar than open wheel? It is because sponsors know
something that open wheel big wigs do not know. That is there is more
budweiser sold in one weekend than there is imported champaigne sold in
a year.
#42
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On Nov 28, 10:24�pm, "Mark B" <n... (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote: "ncrdbl1" <mphsric... (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote in messagenews:1164757278.092417.259160 (AT) 16g2000cwy (DOT) googlegroups.com... On Nov 27, 11:02pm, Cal Vanize <dont.even.spam... (AT) myspam (DOT) org> wrote: In the lasts clutches of braindeath, mphsric... (AT) aol (DOT) com tapped on his keyboard and put out the meaningless babble: For the life of me i cannot understand how so many open wheel fans can still be living in denial. The split did NOT cause open wheels problems, the split was a result of open wheel problems. NASCAR was going to kick the door down and bitch slap open wheel split or no split. The largest drop in TV numbers for the 500 came during the period of the late 70s to the mid 90s. You can blame TG all you want that doesn't change the fact that it was open wheel's business decision in the 80s that alienated the fanbase and sent them to NASCAR.Bullshit again! The split was specifically to start an oval-based series in an attempt to keep Indy the most important open-wheel race. And for Tony George to have an excuse to take control of open wheel racing. The split accelerated NASCAR's takeover of the fanbase because the split alienated open-wheel fans. IMS had already sold-out to NASCAR, TG just wanted to take control of open-wheel to satisfy his ego. The IRL failed to live up to its vision. ALL of their excuses/reasons/rationalizations have proven to fail. They are now following in the footstpes of their rival, but are ten+ years behind and short of talent. The heroes of open American short track racing never materialized except for a few that used the IRL as a stepping stone to NASCAR. And the exodus continues from both open-wheel bodies. In the meantime, TG / IRL split the fan base and caused a rift from which the sport will not recover. Your rationalization is part of the mean-spirited revenge and left-over spite from CART's split from USAC.You keep repeating that the IRL never lived up to it's vision and it is so terrible. Just remember this the IRL put cart into bankruptcy and if everything having to do with cart was a great as you want us to believe. Then the series would still be around today. Well lets look at some facts. The original press release annouceing the founding of the IRL used to be on the Indy website. �Ive done a google and yahoo search and so far nothing comes up anymore to pull Mr. George's exact words. �What I have found is a terrible attempt to justify 25/8 and calling the lock out no lock out. �Actually if you read between the lines I think he has just realized he stepped in it big time and there was no quick way out. Read it for yourself �herehttp://www.220mph.com/own/NEWSARCHIVE/StarNews_TonyGeorge1995.htm Now I ask my self this question, "If the founding of the IRL is such a historic event, why aren't the exact words of the founder making that annoucement easy to obtain?" �They at one time were posted right there for all to read. �Well it could be because he did say that it was to be an all oval series. (which IIRC he said just that) It was to be North American only ( guess Japan moved) �To protect the traditions of the month of May (until he decided to change them himself) Lower cost cars (well at least they tried for a short time) �Getting rid of those evil engine leases (till they all started dropping enough oil to get the EPA interested) and Honda and Toyota wouldn't come and play without them. �And of course the "heros of the short tracks" have to have a way to Indy. �Forget that the midget and sprint car drivers are now totally unqualified to run the current indy car without a stepping stone. �Without it we never would have seen those super stars Jimmy Kite, Billy Boat and good old 00 Joe. �Excuse me I forgot the infamous Racin Gardner. Many will say that the ratings started dropping in the late 70s and had been in decline till the mid 90s prior to the split. �Thats true, but they also forget to mention one big thing that was totally outside racing. �Remember that little thing called CABLE??? �It started coming into its own then and suddenly the networks didn't have total control of what was on. �They had to compete with many channels instead of the other 2 major networks and thats a huge change. �Then there was this little channel that had a huge impact on racing and many other sports. �Isn't it Espn ?? hmmm What we do know is from a health standpoint, open wheel racing was healthy in 95. Perfect? �No but healthy. �New cars and technology every year was no problem. �Sponsors were easy to find. �It cost a great deal, but then money was there to pay for it. �Fields were full. �Bumps were a plenty at Indy, and a ticket for the 500 just couldn't be had at any reasonable price. That all changed in 96. �Splitting the fan base, and only someone with the ego bigger than an 18 wheeler, mental midget or both could miss that as an extremely high probablilty if not a certainty, dimmished the value for sponsors, tv and any of a number of interest that make racing a viable business. �Money started getting harder to get and things began to spiral downward. �The drop in tv ratings alone from 95 to 96 ought to speak volumes. �They kept dropping and only Danica mania caused a brief uptick. Now a very large percentage of Nascar races draw higher ratings than the 500, something that in 95 would have been unthinkable. Some will say the IRL drove CART out of business and on the surface its true. �Well I don't agree. �Actually CART put itself out of business more than the IRL. �Going public in the first place was its biggest mistake. Then its choice of leadership often left a lot to be desired. �Some of the worst mistakes are now in the IRL and honestly Champ Car is likely the better for it. � Yet surprise, CART really wasn't going away. �The bankruptcy was actually the legal means used to take the company private again and lo and behold TG showed up at the courts to attempt to buy enough to insure racing would stop. �It didn't work. �He tried choke the supply of engines, even trying to block the Cosworth deal at the last minute. �It didn't work there either. �Worse than that is that at least two of the partners in the new company have pockets as deep or deeper than his. �The end he was hoping for didn't happen. Some will say Nascar would have taken the open wheel crowd anyway, but that is no where near the truth. �In fact Nascar car is a totally different fan base. �Few Nascar fans watch or care about pointy cars. �Nascar grew all by itself on that little new channel called Espn. �It used to be a good product, good broadcasts with good annoucers, and for the first time made its product available to a national rather than a regional audience. �If the spilt hadn't happened, Nascar would be about where it is today anyway. Forming the Brickyard 400 helped a little, but being at Indy didn't drastically improve or hinder Nascar's growth. �All it did was to create another revenue stream to off set the losses that were expected with the IRL. �Its effectively help pay for the IRL since its inception. Some will say the lack of American drivers has hurt open wheel. �I say hog wash. �Lack of the talent in the same place or in many cases just lack of talent period is more of an issue. �No one is going to show to hear me sing at the Met. Guess what? �Id stink. �The three tenors aren't likely to sing at the local VFW hall either. �Its a two way street. �Top talent needs a top stage on which to perform. �Top stages are dimished with poor talent. One thing I think I read that I actually believe TG when he said "It hurts me to hear drivers call Indy just another race." �That may be one of the few things I actually believe. �Im a champ car fan, and NEVER will be an IRL fan. �I will not support the 500 till Champ Car is running there again, and TG is not in control of Champ Car. �Its been ten years now and he hasn't got me watching kicking and screaming. �He can look in the mirror if he is looking for the person that made me feel the way I do. �From the looks of the stands and ticket sales Im not alone either.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Going public was the only thing that kept cart alive as long as it did. The series was filled with internal strife and power grabs. It was a flawed business plan that was destined to fail. The IPO was the only thing that kept the series alive. If not the flawed logic of its set up would have imploded much earlier. So far i have seen TG blamed, the split blamed, going public blamed and nascar blamed. Yet no one is willing to look in the mirror and be honest enough to say that open wheels business plan led to the demise of open wheel racing in America. I guess the ego of today F1 wanna be ccws fans does not allow them to see the what really happened. |
and re-read the post you just responded to. Then maybe, just maybe,
you'll see why your assertions are so inane.
Here's a hint: Wanna take bets on whether or not Mark said, "CART put
itself out of business"
--
forty
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and
mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” - Ernest Hemingway
#43
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ncrdbl1 wrote: On Nov 28, 10:24?pm, "Mark B" <n... (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote: "ncrdbl1" <mphsric... (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote in messagenews:1164757278.092417.259160 (AT) 16g2000cwy (DOT) googlegroups.com... On Nov 27, 11:02pm, Cal Vanize <dont.even.spam... (AT) myspam (DOT) org> wrote: In the lasts clutches of braindeath, mphsric... (AT) aol (DOT) com tapped on his keyboard and put out the meaningless babble: For the life of me i cannot understand how so many open wheel fans can still be living in denial. The split did NOT cause open wheels problems, the split was a result of open wheel problems. NASCAR was going to kick the door down and bitch slap open wheel split or no split. The largest drop in TV numbers for the 500 came during the period of the late 70s to the mid 90s. You can blame TG all you want that doesn't change the fact that it was open wheel's business decision in the 80s that alienated the fanbase and sent them to NASCAR.Bullshit again! The split was specifically to start an oval-based series in an attempt to keep Indy the most important open-wheel race. And for Tony George to have an excuse to take control of open wheel racing. The split accelerated NASCAR's takeover of the fanbase because the split alienated open-wheel fans. IMS had already sold-out to NASCAR, TG just wanted to take control of open-wheel to satisfy his ego. The IRL failed to live up to its vision. ALL of their excuses/reasons/rationalizations have proven to fail. They are now following in the footstpes of their rival, but are ten+ years behind and short of talent. The heroes of open American short track racing never materialized except for a few that used the IRL as a stepping stone to NASCAR. And the exodus continues from both open-wheel bodies. In the meantime, TG / IRL split the fan base and caused a rift from which the sport will not recover. Your rationalization is part of the mean-spirited revenge and left-over spite from CART's split from USAC.You keep repeating that the IRL never lived up to it's vision and it is so terrible. Just remember this the IRL put cart into bankruptcy and if everything having to do with cart was a great as you want us to believe. Then the series would still be around today. Well lets look at some facts. The original press release annouceing the founding of the IRL used to be on the Indy website. ?Ive done a google and yahoo search and so far nothing comes up anymore to pull Mr. George's exact words. ?What I have found is a terrible attempt to justify 25/8 and calling the lock out no lock out. ?Actually if you read between the lines I think he has just realized he stepped in it big time and there was no quick way out. Read it for yourself ?herehttp://www.220mph.com/own/NEWSARCHIVE/StarNews_TonyGeorge1995.htm Now I ask my self this question, "If the founding of the IRL is such a historic event, why aren't the exact words of the founder making that annoucement easy to obtain?" ?They at one time were posted right there for all to read. ?Well it could be because he did say that it was to be an all oval series. (which IIRC he said just that) It was to be North American only ( guess Japan moved) ?To protect the traditions of the month of May (until he decided to change them himself) Lower cost cars (well at least they tried for a short time) ?Getting rid of those evil engine leases (till they all started dropping enough oil to get the EPA interested) and Honda and Toyota wouldn't come and play without them. ?And of course the "heros of the short tracks" have to have a way to Indy. ?Forget that the midget and sprint car drivers are now totally unqualified to run the current indy car without a stepping stone. ?Without it we never would have seen those super stars Jimmy Kite, Billy Boat and good old 00 Joe. ?Excuse me I forgot the infamous Racin Gardner. Many will say that the ratings started dropping in the late 70s and had been in decline till the mid 90s prior to the split. ?Thats true, but they also forget to mention one big thing that was totally outside racing. ?Remember that little thing called CABLE??? ?It started coming into its own then and suddenly the networks didn't have total control of what was on. ?They had to compete with many channels instead of the other 2 major networks and thats a huge change. ?Then there was this little channel that had a huge impact on racing and many other sports. ?Isn't it Espn ?? hmmm What we do know is from a health standpoint, open wheel racing was healthy in 95. Perfect? ?No but healthy. ?New cars and technology every year was no problem. ?Sponsors were easy to find. ?It cost a great deal, but then money was there to pay for it. ?Fields were full. ?Bumps were a plenty at Indy, and a ticket for the 500 just couldn't be had at any reasonable price. That all changed in 96. ?Splitting the fan base, and only someone with the ego bigger than an 18 wheeler, mental midget or both could miss that as an extremely high probablilty if not a certainty, dimmished the value for sponsors, tv and any of a number of interest that make racing a viable business. ?Money started getting harder to get and things began to spiral downward. ?The drop in tv ratings alone from 95 to 96 ought to speak volumes. ?They kept dropping and only Danica mania caused a brief uptick. Now a very large percentage of Nascar races draw higher ratings than the 500, something that in 95 would have been unthinkable. Some will say the IRL drove CART out of business and on the surface its true. ?Well I don't agree. ?Actually CART put itself out of business more than the IRL. ?Going public in the first place was its biggest mistake. Then its choice of leadership often left a lot to be desired. ?Some of the worst mistakes are now in the IRL and honestly Champ Car is likely the better for it. ? Yet surprise, CART really wasn't going away. ?The bankruptcy was actually the legal means used to take the company private again and lo and behold TG showed up at the courts to attempt to buy enough to insure racing would stop. ?It didn't work. ?He tried choke the supply of engines, even trying to block the Cosworth deal at the last minute. ?It didn't work there either. ?Worse than that is that at least two of the partners in the new company have pockets as deep or deeper than his. ?The end he was hoping for didn't happen. Some will say Nascar would have taken the open wheel crowd anyway, but that is no where near the truth. ?In fact Nascar car is a totally different fan base. ?Few Nascar fans watch or care about pointy cars. ?Nascar grew all by itself on that little new channel called Espn. ?It used to be a good product, good broadcasts with good annoucers, and for the first time made its product available to a national rather than a regional audience. ?If the spilt hadn't happened, Nascar would be about where it is today anyway. Forming the Brickyard 400 helped a little, but being at Indy didn't drastically improve or hinder Nascar's growth. ?All it did was to create another revenue stream to off set the losses that were expected with the IRL. ?Its effectively help pay for the IRL since its inception. Some will say the lack of American drivers has hurt open wheel. ?I say hog wash. ?Lack of the talent in the same place or in many cases just lack of talent period is more of an issue. ?No one is going to show to hear me sing at the Met. Guess what? ?Id stink. ?The three tenors aren't likely to sing at the local VFW hall either. ?Its a two way street. ?Top talent needs a top stage on which to perform. ?Top stages are dimished with poor talent. One thing I think I read that I actually believe TG when he said "It hurts me to hear drivers call Indy just another race." ?That may be one of the few things I actually believe. ?Im a champ car fan, and NEVER will be an IRL fan. ?I will not support the 500 till Champ Car is running there again, and TG is not in control of Champ Car. ?Its been ten years now and he hasn't got me watching kicking and screaming. ?He can look in the mirror if he is looking for the person that made me feel the way I do. ?From the looks of the stands and ticket sales Im not alone either.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Going public was the only thing that kept cart alive as long as it did. The series was filled with internal strife and power grabs. It was a flawed business plan that was destined to fail. The IPO was the only thing that kept the series alive. If not the flawed logic of its set up would have imploded much earlier. So far i have seen TG blamed, the split blamed, going public blamed and nascar blamed. Yet no one is willing to look in the mirror and be honest enough to say that open wheels business plan led to the demise of open wheel racing in America. I guess the ego of today F1 wanna be ccws fans does not allow them to see the what really happened. Pull your pants up, wipe the spittle off your lip, put your toys away, and re-read the post you just responded to. Then maybe, just maybe, you'll see why your assertions are so inane. Here's a hint: Wanna take bets on whether or not Mark said, "CART put itself out of business" -- forty "There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games." - Ernest Hemingway |
Cart management made lots of mistakes, Texas being a huge one. Yet the
business plan as a whole worked reasonably well for more than a decade.
Teams were profitable. Series was profitable. The Indy 500 was still doing
extremely well. Yes there was in fighting. Teams are competitive and thats
the nature of the beast. Its also not necessarily bad with good people in
charge.
IF the Cart business plan is and was so bad, why is the IRL doing
essentially everything that CART was doing pre split? What exactly and
specifically is the IRL doing now that Cart wasn't doing before the split?
IF all that is true, then the only reason the split had to occur in the
first place is who was in charge (and not just the 500 because the 500 was
never a CART race) and that is the truely sad thing. I hope they can look
in the mirror and at least realize the huge mistake they made, but frankly I
am not sure that anyone is willing to admit that even now.
Personally I really don't consider CART completely out of business, though
that isn't the legal interpretation. I consider the bankrupcy more of a
name change. That was one of the very few bankruptcies where all the
creditors got paid. Personally I considered it a means to take the series
private again, to restructure the organzation and in the process a name
change.
I also do not believe open wheel racing is dead or dying, but I do believe
there is no quick fix left. It will have to be rebuilt one new fan at a
time and keeping the fans you managed to save through the split. Its going
to be hard to do though. Parents don't teach kids to be fans of the IRL.
In fact at the last champ car race I attended that had some great tee shirts
that just the opposite was being done. sly grin. Wonder why?? Yet its easy
to see the split did at least 25 to 50 years worth of damage in the growth
of the series. Yes it can recover, but the next version of Gene Simmons and
I am Indy won't fix it. The fact they even tried such a tactic just
confirms how out of touch the IRL is with race marketing.
That's actually understandable as well. They never needed to do any, that
is till now, and there really isn't anyone there that knows anything about
race promotion. Now its time they better learn.
I do have a prediction which I think will be relatively safe. The IRL will
have both another attendance and ratings drop. The IRL 500 won't be sold
out again. TV ratings will be down, and even if Danica wins, you won't see
any up tick in ratings. No bumps at Indy and the 500 field will only make 33
if the speedway checkbook opens. Champ car will see an increase in teams,
car count and attendance. Ratings will improve, but very very slowly. On
track attendance will grow and easily exceed the attendance figures of the
IRL even including the IRL 500. You might see a single champ car weekend
exceed the attendance of the 500 and possibly even come close to the
attendance of the entire month of May. With luck they will even get the
right winner in the winners circle.
Sadly at times I think back to my Indy 500 memories and remember the great
battles fondly. The last Indy 500 (1995) will always hold a special place,
but the IRL 500 that has existed since has indeed been the greatest spectale
in racing, but not in a good way.
Time will eventually sort this out. Engines might tell the story or better
put the lack there of. Honda only has one more year on its contract. Who
else is going to step up and supply engines? Toyota? I think not. GM,
Nissan have already played that game and would be doubtful. Others? For
the exposure received and the expense incurred why would they? It makes no
sense or why else would so many have already pulled out of the series.
I really only see two options. Crate engines which would be the same as
racing a plow mule at the Kentucky Derby, and Cosworth. That isn't likely
either without some huge strings attached and if I were KK they wouldn't be
available to the IRL at any price. Crate motors would further cheapen an
already diminished race and the downward spiral would actually accelerate
for a short time.
Sad thing is it didn't have to be that way in 95, and it doesn't have to be
that way now.
#44
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Going public was the only thing that kept cart alive as long as it did. The series was filled with internal strife and power grabs. It was a flawed business plan that was destined to fail. The IPO was the only thing that kept the series alive. If not the flawed logic of its set up would have imploded much earlier. So far i have seen TG blamed, the split blamed, going public blamed and nascar blamed. Yet no one is willing to look in the mirror and be honest enough to say that open wheels business plan led to the demise of open wheel racing in America. I guess the ego of today F1 wanna be ccws fans does not allow them to see the what really happened. |
So lets analyze your denial points.
1. TG is to blame. He wanted to keep his race the most important one
in open wheel. Now, for all practical purposes, its the IRL's only race.
2. TG is to blame for the split. He's the one who did the split. How
could you possibly deny THAT point of FACT? Its related to point 1 and
TG's ego-based power grab.
3. The IPO (like MOST IPOs) was related to helping the series owners
make more from a stock sale. That what IPOs are almost ALWAYS about.
It was a mistake the recovery of which required filing bankrupcy in
order to regain control for those directly involved in race operations.
4. NASCAR isn't to blame. They are the excuse the IRL uses to
rationalize their existence. NASCAR would be where they are regardless
of whether open-wheel split or not. Their fan base is not of the same
demographic as open-wheel.
5. The "open-wheel business plan" you mention was spoiled by the
creation of hte IRL. The split did more than split the teams into two
factions. It significantly reduced the number of cars in the race
fields, it diluted the talent, race attendance was reduced, race
politics surface to the headlines and got in the way of competition.
Such was the impact of the creation of the IRL. So the failure of the
"business plan" (for BOTH the IRL and CCWS) was at least heavily
catalized by the split, definitely accelerated by the split and most
likely a direct result of the split
6. Many CCWS fans are also F1 fans. Are you so bigotted against other
forms of racing that you don't at least enjoy watching F1 racing? Most
fans are savy enough to recognize the difference between the two series
and enjoy both for what they are. Its not, as you describe "F1 wanna be
CCWS fans", but it might ybe your distorted view of of racing getting in
teh way.
7. What happened is very obvious. If you have trouble understanding
it, your'e either 1> too blinded by irrational loyality to the IRL, 2>
on the payroll of the IRL, and / or 3> not as smart as I've given you
credit for.
If this explanation doesn't help, then maybe you should try to get over
the FACT that CART had to split from USAC en masse in order to keep USAC
from strangling open-wheel racing. Remember, EVERYONE (as in ALL the
teams) left USAC to go with CART because it was the right thing to do
for the sport.
Stop trying to sound like a bitter, vindictive old USAC official trying
to live the dream of the 60s. Its over. Get over it and get on with
rational life.
So why don't you take a couple of days off to think things over. Have a
couple of beers. I'll even buy. Maybe then you'll have a clue.
#45
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| And they still blame TG for the demise of open wheel racing. It is the attitude shown in this post that has done more to damage open wheel racing than any split. The elitist want open wheel to be their personal play toy and then complain that the numbers are not what like they were in the past. The glory days of Indy was because of the same fans that are now looked down upon by the elitist snobs in open wheel. The small minority of racing fans has control of American open wheel and the vast majoritry of racing fans have moved on to NASCAR or other forms of racing. It wasn't the split that has caused the problems in open wheel racing it is telling the main fan base that they are insignificant pieces of inbred trash not worth listening to. Why do so many more sponsors go to nascar than open wheel? It is because sponsors know something that open wheel big wigs do not know. That is there is more budweiser sold in one weekend than there is imported champaigne sold in a year. |
counseling.
#46
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Cart management made lots of mistakes, Texas being a huge one. Yet the business plan as a whole worked reasonably well for more than a decade. Teams were profitable. Series was profitable. The Indy 500 was still doing extremely well. Yes there was in fighting. Teams are competitive and thats the nature of the beast. Its also not necessarily bad with good people in charge. IF the Cart business plan is and was so bad, why is the IRL doing essentially everything that CART was doing pre split? What exactly and specifically is the IRL doing now that Cart wasn't doing before the split? IF all that is true, then the only reason the split had to occur in the first place is who was in charge (and not just the 500 because the 500 was never a CART race) and that is the truely sad thing. I hope they can look in the mirror and at least realize the huge mistake they made, but frankly I am not sure that anyone is willing to admit that even now. Personally I really don't consider CART completely out of business, though that isn't the legal interpretation. I consider the bankrupcy more of a name change. That was one of the very few bankruptcies where all the creditors got paid. Personally I considered it a means to take the series private again, to restructure the organzation and in the process a name change. I also do not believe open wheel racing is dead or dying, but I do believe there is no quick fix left. It will have to be rebuilt one new fan at a time and keeping the fans you managed to save through the split. Its going to be hard to do though. Parents don't teach kids to be fans of the IRL. In fact at the last champ car race I attended that had some great tee shirts that just the opposite was being done. sly grin. Wonder why?? Yet its easy to see the split did at least 25 to 50 years worth of damage in the growth of the series. Yes it can recover, but the next version of Gene Simmons and I am Indy won't fix it. The fact they even tried such a tactic just confirms how out of touch the IRL is with race marketing. That's actually understandable as well. They never needed to do any, that is till now, and there really isn't anyone there that knows anything about race promotion. Now its time they better learn. I do have a prediction which I think will be relatively safe. The IRL will have both another attendance and ratings drop. The IRL 500 won't be sold out again. TV ratings will be down, and even if Danica wins, you won't see any up tick in ratings. No bumps at Indy and the 500 field will only make 33 if the speedway checkbook opens. Champ car will see an increase in teams, car count and attendance. Ratings will improve, but very very slowly. On track attendance will grow and easily exceed the attendance figures of the IRL even including the IRL 500. You might see a single champ car weekend exceed the attendance of the 500 and possibly even come close to the attendance of the entire month of May. With luck they will even get the right winner in the winners circle. Sadly at times I think back to my Indy 500 memories and remember the great battles fondly. The last Indy 500 (1995) will always hold a special place, but the IRL 500 that has existed since has indeed been the greatest spectale in racing, but not in a good way. Time will eventually sort this out. Engines might tell the story or better put the lack there of. Honda only has one more year on its contract. Who else is going to step up and supply engines? Toyota? I think not. GM, Nissan have already played that game and would be doubtful. Others? For the exposure received and the expense incurred why would they? It makes no sense or why else would so many have already pulled out of the series. I really only see two options. Crate engines which would be the same as racing a plow mule at the Kentucky Derby, and Cosworth. That isn't likely either without some huge strings attached and if I were KK they wouldn't be available to the IRL at any price. Crate motors would further cheapen an already diminished race and the downward spiral would actually accelerate for a short time. Sad thing is it didn't have to be that way in 95, and it doesn't have to be that way now. |
#47
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So why don't you take a couple of days off to think things over. Have a couple of beers. I'll even buy. Maybe then you'll have a clue. |
#48
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ncrdbl1 wrote: And they still blame TG for the demise of open wheel racing. It is the attitude shown in this post that has done more to damage open wheel racing than any split. The elitist want open wheel to be their personal play toy and then complain that the numbers are not what like they were in the past. The glory days of Indy was because of the same fans that are now looked down upon by the elitist snobs in open wheel. The small minority of racing fans has control of American open wheel and the vast majoritry of racing fans have moved on to NASCAR or other forms of racing. It wasn't the split that has caused the problems in open wheel racing it is telling the main fan base that they are insignificant pieces of inbred trash not worth listening to. Why do so many more sponsors go to nascar than open wheel? It is because sponsors know something that open wheel big wigs do not know. That is there is more budweiser sold in one weekend than there is imported champaigne sold in a year.Please, for your own sake, get some serious professional help and counseling.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - |
basically a group of bitter people who do nothing but spout the same
old misguided talking points over and over. No one will to try to
discuss any topic without some snide personal attacks, basically
proving their entire arguement is based entirely in their emotional
ties to the past. I can only assume that the plan is to run off anyone
with any differing point of few so the ccws fans can live in their
fantasy world where anything that isn't perfect is always someone elses
fault. I am going to love coming in here next year at this time. Many
of the leased teams will be re-examining their future after finding
that even with the espn contract the series is still going to be
drawing it 0.1s and 0,0s thus making it impossible to gain sponsors. If
you then add the potential for the only financial support that the
series has could take a major hit as the JDSU case goes to trial in Aug
of 2007. It should be a very angry group in about 12 months. Also to
the person who says they do not consider CART as being out of business,
luckily for you the legal system does not feel the same way.
Reorganized companies are subject to yearly reviews by the preciding
court where they must show movement toward coming out of receivership.
If not the courts could still force the liquidation assets. Based on
the fact that the current business plan still includes operating with
many of the same practices that put cart out of business, plus the
company has shown no signs of becoming financially self supportive. If
cart did still exist in some form, with this being the third year end
review( which is a very indept review) the court would certainly step
in and liquidate assets.
#49
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#50
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On Nov 29, 7:14�pm, Cal Vanize <dont.even.spam... (AT) myspam (DOT) org> wrote: ncrdbl1 wrote: And they still blame TG for the demise of open wheel racing. It is the attitude shown in this post that has done more to damage open wheel racing than any split. The elitist want open wheel to be their personal play toy and then complain that the numbers are not what like they were in the past. The glory days of Indy was because of the same fans that are now looked down upon by the elitist snobs in open wheel. The small minority of racing fans has control of American open wheel and the vast majoritry of racing fans have moved on to NASCAR or other forms of racing. It wasn't the split that has caused the problems in open wheel racing it is telling the main fan base that they are insignificant pieces of inbred trash not worth listening to. Why do so many more sponsors go to nascar than open wheel? It is because sponsors know something that open wheel big wigs do not know. That is there is more budweiser sold in one weekend than there is imported champaigne sold in a year.Please, for your own sake, get some serious professional help and counseling.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - It is no wonder why there are so few people in this group. Today it is basically a group of bitter people who do nothing but spout the same old misguided talking points over and over. No one will to try to discuss any topic without some snide personal attacks, basically proving their entire arguement is based entirely in their emotional ties to the past. I can only assume that the plan is to run off anyone with any differing point of few so the ccws fans can live in their fantasy world where anything that isn't perfect is always someone elses fault. I am going to love coming in here next year at this time. Many of the leased teams will be re-examining their future after finding that even with the espn contract the series is still going to be drawing it 0.1s and 0,0s thus making it impossible to gain sponsors. If you then add the potential for the only financial support that the series has could take a major hit as the JDSU case goes to trial in Aug of 2007. It should be a very angry group in about 12 months. Also to the person who says they do not consider CART as being out of business, luckily for you the legal system does not feel the same way. Reorganized companies are subject to yearly reviews by the preciding court where they must show movement toward coming out of receivership. If not the courts could still force the liquidation assets. Based on the fact that the current business plan still includes operating with many of the same practices that put cart out of business, plus the company has shown no signs of becoming financially self supportive. If cart did still exist in some form, with this being the third year end review( which is a very indept review) the court would certainly step in and liquidate assets. |
#2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black
--
forty
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and
mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” - Ernest Hemingway
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