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A few weeks old, but an interesting read.
Indy Car motor racing Discussions About Indy Car motor racing (rec.autos.sport.indy)
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#11
 
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Re: A few weeks old, but an interesting read. -
04-03-2007
, 08:48 PM
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On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:50:22 -0500, Cessna 310 <jolene310 (AT) sbc (DOT) com wrote: This is more evidence of the impact of the Tony George ego open wheel split. It shows how badly one person can damage a sport. How did that affect purses in Grand Am and ALMS? Or USAC? Ken Plotkin |
Their only draw was Indy Car and they were so bad at managing that
series that CART was formed.
With fan interest at an all time low, Tony George can take pride in the
mess he's created.
#12
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"Ken Plotkin" <kplotkin (AT) nospam-cox (DOT) net> wrote in message news:d7t513lagmej9ivv1r77r6b6ria6279u6t (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:50:22 -0500, Cessna 310 <jolene310 (AT) sbc (DOT) com wrote: This is more evidence of the impact of the Tony George ego open wheel split. It shows how badly one person can damage a sport. How did that affect purses in Grand Am and ALMS? Or USAC? Ken Plotkin Has U.S. sports car racing ever paid very much? |
#13
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On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:50:22 -0500, Cessna 310 <jolene... (AT) sbc (DOT) com wrote: This is more evidence of the impact of the Tony George ego open wheel split. It shows how badly one person can damage a sport. How did that affect purses in Grand Am and ALMS? Or USAC? Ken Plotkin |
Well with the drop of the purses at the top open wheel levels, which
by the way non of the numbers justify higher yet, I believe it would
have a chilling affect on series lower than the top levels. IRL purses
drop and you would likely expect USAC purses to either hold constant
or drop. One other thing to consider at USAC is this one question.
Who controls USAC???? hmmm Last time I checked that was a Hulman
family deal as well. Grand Am is just the new Nascar road racing and
its starting at the bottom as well, just like ALMS. Grand Am also has
one thing in common with the IRL other than spec cars. Most of the
purse is paid out in one event. According the article, (and Robin
Miller does check his numbers. He may be an old man set in his way
that AJ would slap in heart beat, but numbers like that are too easy
to check and he isn't going to doctor them. If someone has a source
for numbers that disagree, post it. Till then I am going to accept
them) the IRL paid out 24 million in prize money with 10 mil being at
at the Indy 500 alone. Sounds like I could easily quote someone from
days gone by here. Seems the 500 is the only race on the schedule
worth the risks involved. Old timers know who Im talking about and
tragically he died at Indy, and IIRC he was leading at the time.
The thing that hit me was an 18 million dollar purse for the Daytona
500. I might be a bit jaded but it hit me drastically different than
it likely hit many. Instead of thinking how much, I thought, "With
all the revenue that race generates over the month, is that all???"
Frankly the money almost never came from the purses for the race
teams. If it did unsponsored race cars could make a living. Nothing
has a shorter life span than a race car with a team on a tight budget,
and no sponsor regardless of how they finish. Now if the owners are
loaded to the point that they don't care what it costs, they are
having fun then it can go on indefinately.
Those sponsors got a raw deal at the split. The number of eyeballs on
each series dropped by at least half. That means the value of that
sponsorship dropped by more than that from the bad will generated the
way that split was handled. Let me be clear. Like Tony George on
Robin Miller, I don't hate Tony George though I am sure you could find
a long list of people that do. I also do not think that he intended
to damage open wheel the way he did nor was all the responsiblity his,
but the vast majority of the damage caused to open wheel racing in the
last ten+ years is in my opinion 90%+ his and his alone. That he will
have to learn to live with.
It won't get any better until he can come up with a better answer for
Champ Car fans than "I don't know how to answer that." which quite
frankly is likely a totally honest answer. Ego likely had him
believing that the Indy 500 was strong enough that people would
overlook anything he did andhe would drag the fans in to quote him
again, "kicking and screaming". He also believed that he could drive
Cart out of business and with no where else to go fans would return to
Indy. He was totally wrong on the first and only half wrong on the
second. He did drive Cart out of business, but he didn't foresee the
possibilty of someone stepping up with a bank account as big as his to
keep it going. He also didn't foresee just how many fans would rather
be ex fans than IRL fans after the things he did during the split.
When that happened the sponsors and money dried up and he was
successful at one thing. The days when Indy was the only race that
was worth the risk have returned. Dramatically less expense and half
the prize money of the total season in only 3 weeks. From a business
perspective it makes no sense in running the full season.
#14
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Has U.S. sports car racing ever paid very much? |
that preceded it.
But I don't think Tony George had anything to do with that ending.
Ken Plotkin
#15
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On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:46:46 -0400, "armpit" <armarmpitpit (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote: Has U.S. sports car racing ever paid very much? One segment did back in the 60s: the original Can-Am and the pro races that preceded it. But I don't think Tony George had anything to do with that ending. Ken Plotkin |
#16
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Well let me go read that article but several things come to mind right off the bat. Logic is seldom seen here. I challenge anyone to come up with 3 things that Tony has done that has positvely impacted auto racing in the US that could not have been done without the formation of the IRL. Even finding three postive things he has done is tough. I will give you just one. His impact on the development of the safer barrier will be felt for some time. After that, there is nothing he has done that was positive. |
racing. Something Miller did not claim in his article, but which some
here seem to read into it.
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The Nascar race at Indy was done to offset the cash flow drop that he knew would come for a while. It could have been done with or without the IRL. Same with the F1 race. He could have done that with or without the IRL. |
Those were a vision he had that the Speedway should be used more than
once a year. If he had any financial balance in mind, it might have
been that the NASCAR race would offset the milking he expected from
F1. I doubt very much that he expected a drop in revenue from the
IRL.
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Now Tony's recent Windtunnel appearance when asked what he would say to the Champ Car fans and the best he could come up with is "I don't know how to answer that.". Dave Despain was both respectful, and non combative in his approach. He was giving Tony a chance to talk and answer a question that should have been predictable. Either he is so used to dealing with the Star that never asked him a tough question in his life since Robin Miller left, or he is so poorly schooled in the art of pr that he is just in way over his head but he missed a golden opportunity. A chance to heal some wounds, and he didn't take advantage of it. |
it. He pointed out that IRL and CCWS have headed off in such
different directions that he doesn't see how they could merge in the
short term.
If IRL were to fold, how would CCWS deal with their new car not being
suitable for high speed ovals? We'd be back to a situation like the
early 50s, when all the races but the 500 were on dirt. Dirt cars and
one-off pavement cars on a high speed paved track. Only now it would
be lightweight road circuit cars doing their one high speed oval race.
No, I don't think CCWS sat down and said "How can we make a car that
won't work on that kind of track." They designed what was best for
their races, their drivers and their fan base. Just a consequence of
the difference between the two series.
Ken Plotkin
#17
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On 3 Apr 2007 18:47:03 -0700, "Mark" <mblackwell1958 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Well let me go read that article but several things come to mind right off the bat. Logic is seldom seen here. I challenge anyone to come up with 3 things that Tony has done that has positvely impacted auto racing in the US that could not have been done without the formation of the IRL. Even finding three postive things he has done is tough. I will give you just one. His impact on the development of the safer barrier will be felt for some time. After that, there is nothing he has done that was positive. But he did not have anything to do with low purses in sports car racing. Something Miller did not claim in his article, but which some here seem to read into it. |
Who? You were the one that brought up sports car racing.
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The Nascar race at Indy was done to offset the cash flow drop that he knew would come for a while. It could have been done with or without the IRL. Same with the F1 race. He could have done that with or without the IRL. He planned for the NASCAR and F1 races before he came up with the IRL. Those were a vision he had that the Speedway should be used more than once a year. If he had any financial balance in mind, it might have been that the NASCAR race would offset the milking he expected from F1. I doubt very much that he expected a drop in revenue from the IRL. Now Tony's recent Windtunnel appearance when asked what he would say to the Champ Car fans and the best he could come up with is "I don't know how to answer that.". Dave Despain was both respectful, and non combative in his approach. He was giving Tony a chance to talk and answer a question that should have been predictable. Either he is so used to dealing with the Star that never asked him a tough question in his life since Robin Miller left, or he is so poorly schooled in the art of pr that he is just in way over his head but he missed a golden opportunity. A chance to heal some wounds, and he didn't take advantage of it. Looked to me like he saw what happened, and has no idea how to undo it. He pointed out that IRL and CCWS have headed off in such different directions that he doesn't see how they could merge in the short term. |
start unscrewing it. He put such a massive wedge between the surviving
open wheel groups that there isn't much left to build on nor much in
common between them. However, with the IRL following the model of CCWS
by turning into a road-racing series, maybe the IRL will come around.
Quote:
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If IRL were to fold, how would CCWS deal with their new car not being suitable for high speed ovals? We'd be back to a situation like the early 50s, when all the races but the 500 were on dirt. Dirt cars and one-off pavement cars on a high speed paved track. Only now it would be lightweight road circuit cars doing their one high speed oval race. |
wheel oval racing is long past its peak. Its lost its lustre under the
IRL banner. Not really much hope that it will recover given the lack of
popularity of open wheel in general and the IRL specifically.
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No, I don't think CCWS sat down and said "How can we make a car that won't work on that kind of track." They designed what was best for their races, their drivers and their fan base. Just a consequence of the difference between the two series. Ken Plotkin |
#18
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Looked to me like he saw what happened, and has no idea how to undo it. He pointed out that IRL and CCWS have headed off in such different directions that he doesn't see how they could merge in the short term. If IRL were to fold, how would CCWS deal with their new car not being suitable for high speed ovals? We'd be back to a situation like the early 50s, when all the races but the 500 were on dirt. Dirt cars and one-off pavement cars on a high speed paved track. Only now it would be lightweight road circuit cars doing their one high speed oval race. No, I don't think CCWS sat down and said "How can we make a car that won't work on that kind of track." They designed what was best for their races, their drivers and their fan base. Just a consequence of the difference between the two series. Ken Plotkin |
correctly was surposed to be oval compatiable. Yes its lighter. Yes
its more nimble. Actually Paul said they were simular in many
respects to the cars of the early 90s. More downforce from the
undertray and less from the wings makes the cars faster in the corners
and early 90s that scared someone. At that time might have been good
reason to be but a lot of advances have happened in the mean time.
With a safer barrier and the hans device those same corner speeds now
probably wouldn't be the same issue they were then. The lighter car
also would lessen the force of the impact.
Well actually it could be very simple, but that logic does not work if
your intent is to maintain total control. Merger would be impossible
now with the money situation, but fixing the 500 is easy. 1) common
car specs for both series 2) ideally common engine specs or at least a
chassis that could accept either the Champ Car Cosworth and whatever
the IRL can find to run next. 3) Indy 500 and maybe 2 other races to
make a triple crown to pay points for both series toward the
Championship 4) speedway or the IRL control the 500 as it always did
5) rest of the season each series could do as they pleased 6) at Indy
(and the same would apply to other joint races) the fastest 33 get in
the race regardless of series, There can be no advantage given to any
car regardless of if or what series they run the rest of the season 7)
agree to not run more than a couple of races on the same weekends and
avoid if at all possible to run them at the same times.
Frankly that way both series would have a chance to grow, the 500
might have a chance to recover, and it would open an olive branch for
those fans that felt betrayed at the time of the split.
The IRL is no more going to fold than Champ Car. Both series owners
have the cash to float it indefinately. The need each other. Champ
Car realizes it, but I am not sure Tony does even now. I still get
the feeling that he thinks that if he holds out long enough he can
again have entire control over open wheel racing just like the days of
the Hulmans with USAC the Gold Crown series and the 500, just like
grandpa.
Notice you said merger, and with that I would take it that Tony would
want to be in control or it ain't happening. Frankly I have seen
nothing from him to show that he is capable of being in control. As
far as Champ Car I see signs of outright brilliance and times where
they can't be any dumber. If Tony really wanted something to happen
short term, my plan could be done in just a few minutes. Both sides
would win and so would open wheel racing. Like I said though if they
really had wanted anything to happen, such a deal would have been done
long ago.
#19
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Looked to me like he saw what happened, and has no idea how to undo it. He pointed out that IRL and CCWS have headed off in such different directions that he doesn't see how they could merge in the short term. If IRL were to fold, how would CCWS deal with their new car not being suitable for high speed ovals? We'd be back to a situation like the early 50s, when all the races but the 500 were on dirt. Dirt cars and one-off pavement cars on a high speed paved track. Only now it would be lightweight road circuit cars doing their one high speed oval race. No, I don't think CCWS sat down and said "How can we make a car that won't work on that kind of track." They designed what was best for their races, their drivers and their fan base. Just a consequence of the difference between the two series. Ken Plotkin In fact Ken I think its quite the opposite. The DP 1 if I recall correctly was surposed to be oval compatiable. Yes its lighter. Yes its more nimble. Actually Paul said they were simular in many respects to the cars of the early 90s. More downforce from the undertray and less from the wings makes the cars faster in the corners and early 90s that scared someone. At that time might have been good reason to be but a lot of advances have happened in the mean time. With a safer barrier and the hans device those same corner speeds now probably wouldn't be the same issue they were then. The lighter car also would lessen the force of the impact. Well actually it could be very simple, but that logic does not work if your intent is to maintain total control. Merger would be impossible now with the money situation, but fixing the 500 is easy. 1) common car specs for both series 2) ideally common engine specs or at least a chassis that could accept either the Champ Car Cosworth and whatever the IRL can find to run next. 3) Indy 500 and maybe 2 other races to make a triple crown to pay points for both series toward the Championship 4) speedway or the IRL control the 500 as it always did 5) rest of the season each series could do as they pleased 6) at Indy (and the same would apply to other joint races) the fastest 33 get in the race regardless of series, There can be no advantage given to any car regardless of if or what series they run the rest of the season 7) agree to not run more than a couple of races on the same weekends and avoid if at all possible to run them at the same times. Frankly that way both series would have a chance to grow, the 500 might have a chance to recover, and it would open an olive branch for those fans that felt betrayed at the time of the split. The IRL is no more going to fold than Champ Car. Both series owners have the cash to float it indefinately. The need each other. Champ Car realizes it, but I am not sure Tony does even now. I still get the feeling that he thinks that if he holds out long enough he can again have entire control over open wheel racing just like the days of the Hulmans with USAC the Gold Crown series and the 500, just like grandpa. Notice you said merger, and with that I would take it that Tony would want to be in control or it ain't happening. Frankly I have seen nothing from him to show that he is capable of being in control. As far as Champ Car I see signs of outright brilliance and times where they can't be any dumber. If Tony really wanted something to happen short term, my plan could be done in just a few minutes. Both sides would win and so would open wheel racing. Like I said though if they really had wanted anything to happen, such a deal would have been done long ago. |
all in fava?
#20
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On Apr 4, 2:01 pm, "Mark" <mblackwell1... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Looked to me like he saw what happened, and has no idea how to undo it. He pointed out that IRL and CCWS have headed off in such different directions that he doesn't see how they could merge in the short term. If IRL were to fold, how would CCWS deal with their new car not being suitable for high speed ovals? We'd be back to a situation like the early 50s, when all the races but the 500 were on dirt. Dirt cars and one-off pavement cars on a high speed paved track. Only now it would be lightweight road circuit cars doing their one high speed oval race. No, I don't think CCWS sat down and said "How can we make a car that won't work on that kind of track." They designed what was best for their races, their drivers and their fan base. Just a consequence of the difference between the two series. Ken Plotkin In fact Ken I think its quite the opposite. The DP 1 if I recall correctly was surposed to be oval compatiable. Yes its lighter. Yes its more nimble. Actually Paul said they were simular in many respects to the cars of the early 90s. More downforce from the undertray and less from the wings makes the cars faster in the corners and early 90s that scared someone. At that time might have been good reason to be but a lot of advances have happened in the mean time. With a safer barrier and the hans device those same corner speeds now probably wouldn't be the same issue they were then. The lighter car also would lessen the force of the impact. Well actually it could be very simple, but that logic does not work if your intent is to maintain total control. Merger would be impossible now with the money situation, but fixing the 500 is easy. 1) common car specs for both series 2) ideally common engine specs or at least a chassis that could accept either the Champ Car Cosworth and whatever the IRL can find to run next. 3) Indy 500 and maybe 2 other races to make a triple crown to pay points for both series toward the Championship 4) speedway or the IRL control the 500 as it always did 5) rest of the season each series could do as they pleased 6) at Indy (and the same would apply to other joint races) the fastest 33 get in the race regardless of series, There can be no advantage given to any car regardless of if or what series they run the rest of the season 7) agree to not run more than a couple of races on the same weekends and avoid if at all possible to run them at the same times. Frankly that way both series would have a chance to grow, the 500 might have a chance to recover, and it would open an olive branch for those fans that felt betrayed at the time of the split. The IRL is no more going to fold than Champ Car. Both series owners have the cash to float it indefinately. The need each other. Champ Car realizes it, but I am not sure Tony does even now. I still get the feeling that he thinks that if he holds out long enough he can again have entire control over open wheel racing just like the days of the Hulmans with USAC the Gold Crown series and the 500, just like grandpa. Notice you said merger, and with that I would take it that Tony would want to be in control or it ain't happening. Frankly I have seen nothing from him to show that he is capable of being in control. As far as Champ Car I see signs of outright brilliance and times where they can't be any dumber. If Tony really wanted something to happen short term, my plan could be done in just a few minutes. Both sides would win and so would open wheel racing. Like I said though if they really had wanted anything to happen, such a deal would have been done long ago. I nominate Mark for AOWR Chairman... all in fava? |
challenge. Fixing this mess sure will qualify.
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