One of the trends in IRL fans writing here, is the notion that Champ
Car is through, worthless, etc., yet somehow they feel its demise
would
solve all the IRL's problems. A contradictory argument at best.

Whatever Champ car is or isn't, the IRL continues to be a series
without the
fan base or TV audience CART had in 1995 (we'll use that year, because
that
was the year the IRL was created to "solve" everything open wheel in
the USA).
The IRL concept not only killed off some good races (Phoenix,
anyone?),
but it has taken down the Indy 500 to a less-than-sold-out race with
far fewer
entries, interest, TV audience, etc. Don't forget the once-
anticipated "Pole"
and "Bump" days - a big deal before the IRL.

The IRL has accomplished this global downward trend without any help
from
Champ Car. But for the record, they once longed for an Andretti or
Penske
presence, but when they got it, their race to invisibility
continued.

Mark said it best when he wrote: "The Indy 500 ended in 1995."

-Sterling

On Mar 13, 6:05 am, 6andretti <mdequa... (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
Better have a heavy duty one. This clown defines "talking out of his
ass"

On Mar 12, 9:39 pm, "Mark" <mblackwell1... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

"Dave-E" <davegto67 (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote



It's called reality. Before the split CART/ChampCar was IndyCar. After
the split
CART/ChampCar WAS STILL the REAL IndyCar. Long Beach and Oz belonged to the
REAL IndyCar = CART/ChampCar. But somewhere between 2000 and 2006
CART/ChampCar lost that REAL IndyCar mystique. It slowly but surly slipped
to the IRL. The transformation probably started back when Penske switched
the IRL. Then Andretti and Green and Rahall made the switch. Then
ChampCar/CART was finished as the REAL IndyCar. The IRL became the REAL
IndyCar.

What I'm saying is - Long Beach and Oz do not belong the IRL or
ChampCar, they belong to IndyCar racing and the IRL is IndyCar racing right
now. So those two races belong to the IRL.

Anyway, it's over for ChampCar. They are a fourth rate side show circus
except they have no elephants, lions, or trapeze artists to put on a show.
Only thing they have are clowns and clowns alone aint going to make it.

On Mar 15, 12:05 am, "Von Fourche" <Khonak... (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:


Reality, no. Twisted logic, yes.

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:05:38 GMT, "Von Fourche"
<Khonakong (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Perhaps. Where does that leave the vaunted IRL then? Third rate WAY
behind NASCAR. Want proof? Where are all the top drivers seemingly
migrating to?

On Mar 15, 12:05 am, "Von Fourche" <Khonak... (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
Indy Car is just a name. CART/Champ Car developed them. Their cars
made them and for that matter that had a great deal to do with the
growth of Indy between 79 and 95, but no one at the speedway seems to
recognize or accept that. Those two races go against the stated
founding principles of the IRL. Remember it was to be an all oval
series. Long Beach is a road race. How are those sprint car guys
like tattoo going to have a chance with no experience road racing?
Hint they don't. Now wasn't the IRL surposed to a North American only
series?? This series is for Americans and American drivers
remember??? Not my words the speedways. That is till the Japanese
car makers started floating money around. Then a Japanese race didn't
seem like such a bad idea and those evil engine leases were not so
evil anymore. Going down under for a race for the IRL again would be
both road racing and on foreign soil and against every principle upon
which the IRL was founded.

Now for the name Indy Car, CART/Champ Car had a licensing deal. They
had a contract from the speedway to use the name Indy Car. Its a
generic name at best, but when the deal expired the speedway chose not
to renew the agreement.

As far as it being a sideshow, most of open wheel can find one easily
assuming one is smart enough to look around. IF Champ car is 4th
rate, then Id say that the IRL is far lower than that. Champ Car
champs for the most part have stayed in the series. How bout that IRL
champ Tony Stewart??? Ops he is now a Cup champ. How bout that IRL
champ Sam Hornish? Oh he's running Busch races getting ready for the
jump. Now when Champ Car stars have run the 500, just how have they
done?? Hmm lets see there was one Juan Montoya that won his rookie
year with little test time because his real job took most of his
time. How bout the year they had to change the rules to make sure an
IRL regular won? If we can't beat em, we can get them in the appeal.
Even the second beat all the regular teams in their own equipment.
You won't likely seem much of that though since Bruno got IV'ed and
the risk reward isn't there for the driver.

IF all that 4th rate talent can come on to the IRL's biggest stage,
run cars they only see one race a year and have limited test time in,
and then beat all the regulars what does it say about the regulars in
the IRL?

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:57:54 -0500, 6andretti <mdequardo (AT) tds (DOT) net>
wrote:

[snip]
The migration began well before the split.

NASCAR is now where it's at for a driver. Big money to be made there,
even for mid-runners. In open wheel's heyday, dirvers made a decent
living. But somewhere along the line only the top drivers got paid,
while the rest had to buy their way in.

It will be interesting to see if NASCAR attracts so much talent that
ride buyers start appearing in large numbers.

Ken Plotkin

On Mar 15, 8:07 pm, Ken Plotkin <kplot... (AT) nospam-cox (DOT) net> wrote:
I would say that is likely to happen.

NASCAR will eat itself (eventually)

On Mar 15, 8:07 pm, Ken Plotkin <kplot... (AT) nospam-cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Its not called ride buying in Nascar. Frankly even in open wheel it
wasn't either. Its referred to as a driver bringing sponsorship as a
part of the package. Nascar has a real cost control problem. The
trend now is owners having to sell part interest in a team to stay
competitive from the business side. It won't be long before a single
individual forming a race team will have a hard time making it. It
will just be too expensive. Sometimes that works, sometimes it
doesn't. Newman/Hass has worked. Rahal Letterman so far has held
together. Ganassi and Sabates worked not as well but they are still
going.

For the longest time, it was considered the teams job to find sponsors
and Nascar it is still true for the top teams. Owners pick a driver
these days not only on driving talent, but marketing ability as well.
Even if you have the talent of a Steve Kinser running Winchester or
Eldora, if you can't present the right public presence you are not
going to get a ride. Back in the day the owner had total control over
who drove. Now its as much the sponsor as the owner.

The price of talent in other areas other than driving is going up
fast. Waltrip hired someone away from Bill Davis Racing I read last
week. You think he took a pay cut? Its an area over which Nascar has
no control. Nascar is also entering a very common phase for a family
business. Its the third generation where the problems show up. It
definately has been proven true at IMS. The same is happening in
Nascar as well. Its just going to take a little longer to mess it up
as bad as Tony managed to mess up open wheel.