CART is, according to our beloved CHUMPS, a REAL road racing series,
right?

Well, if that's REALLY the case, how come it is not planning to be
racing at Mid-Ohio, and appears has breached its contract with Elkhart
Lake to the point it will be next to fall off the CART 2004 "schedule"
(and I use that term loosely, just like OWRS does)?

Are the CHUMPS and OWRS trying to tell us that REAL road racing is
REALLY on street circuits?

"Billy Chapel" <outofoptions (AT) outoftime (DOT) com> wrote

No, you dumbass. It's because CART must go to those venues which will bring
in the crowds and ratings in order to stay afloat. The American public
doesn't want to have to think - they want everything spelled out for them.
That's why oval racing is popular (and why the IRL does better), its EASY to
watch and understand. That's why wrestling is the number one show in it's
time slot - because the American people as a whole are STUPID. Road racing
will never take off in this country like it has in Europe - never happen.
That's why CART's formula is doomed unfortunately.

People like you just go with the majority, look at ratings and crowds.
You're not a true racing fan and you don't know what makes good racing.

It's poor management aside, CART has had the best formula - regardless of
what the crowds think. A combination of ovals, street circuits and road
courses results in a true champion. You can go watch your cookie cutter IRL
series all you want, I'll root for the guys who can do more than turn left.
And you know what? So what if they're using spec engines. So what if they
end up a spec series. It's a true test of the drivers. If you want
technological innovation then go watch F1.

CFster

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:02:38 -0500, "CFster" <cfster (AT) deletemecox (DOT) net>
wrote:


But so many of the CHUMPS have been telling us that road racing is
MUCH more popular than oval racing.

Why is that?



Sheese, I wish you people would make up your minds! I'm in the
minority here, the majority there, etc., etc., etc.

Just goes to show you that you're wrong, wrong, wrong, again.

I know what makes GOOD racing for me, my pretentious and condescending
friend, and I don't tell you what kind of racing you have to like
before you can be considered a race fan.

You CHUMPS are such arrogant and self-important twits, every one. You
really do think you are somehow better than everyone else. Strange.



In your NOT-SO-HUMBLE AND OVERTLY EGOTISTICAL opinion, and only in
that.

F-1 fans might argue that with you. ALMS fans might argue that with
you. Sprint car fans might argue that with you. NASCAR fans might
argue that with you. World Rally fans would most certainky argue that
with you. Motorcycle race fans might argue that with you.

Just because you are a CART fan, and it is your favorite series, doesn
suddenly elevate you above all other racing fans, you insufferable
snob.



Really how well does he drive on dirt? In a rally? In the Baja 1000?
In the Paris to Dakar? How ell does he go down the Mulsanne straight,
AT NIGHT? How well can he handle a Supercross style jump? How well
does he handle parachuting a Superbike off the banking into turn 1
into the infield at Daytona? How ell does he handle 24 degree banking
in a narrow-tired, 2-ton stock car with 40 other guys around him? How
well does he handle the changes in track surface temperature and
lightining conditions going in and out of the tunnel at Monaco?

All the CART series does is tell you how the CART champion is, and
with thsi past year's field, it didn't even tell how well the CART
champion would do against good drivers.



I watch ALL the racing seires I can, on two and four wheels, and with
boat hulls, and with airplane wings and big propellers.

And you know what, I don't judge any one of them vastly superior to
the other, because they aren't, you arrogant twit.



Why not for the guys who not do more than turn left, but also race at
night? Or across terrain they have never seen before? Or across
trackless desert when they are dog-tired and weary from racing for 2
weeks straight, every day? Or crashing across the Baja penisula at
night sometimes 10 to 12 feet in the air? Or having to leap a huge
triple jump even though they got a bad drive off the previous berm?



Kind of removes that "pinnacle of motorsport" ideal right off the top.
Same with the IRL, BTW.



Same thing.



No it's not. Not even close. You want to see REAL drivers?

Catch a World Rally event or the Paris to Dakar.



I'll watch it, too, for various reasons. Certainly the drivers there
are FAR better than they are in CART.

Meanwhile, pull your self-important and over-inflated HUGE head out of
your tiny, little hummingbird ass and realize that CART is not the
be-all, end-all of motorsport. You want to like it> Fine. I got no
problem with that.

But if you want to trot in here with your two-digit I.Q. and your
pretentious, condescending, arrogant, self-important,
chip-on-your-CART-shoulder soapbox and tell 4 decades plus
knowledgeable motorsports fans they don't know what kind of racing is
good racing or not, or try to peddle your tripe that CART has the best
drivers, give it a rest, You have absolutely noi idea what you are
talking about.

Imagine, a dolt like you thinking that Paul Tracy, Adrian Fernandez,
Jimmy Vasser, Ryan Hunter-Reay, Mario Haberfeld, Bruno Junqiera, Geoff
Boss, Tiago Monteiro, etc., etc., etc. are the very best drivers in
the world?

What a joke.

"Billy Chapel" <outofoptions (AT) outoftime (DOT) com> wrote

You're in the minority here, make no mistake. Where you are in the majority
is in your Americanized views of motorsport. Just because it's popular,
doesn't necessarily make it better.

Common sense, is what it is.

Good for them - everybody thinks theirs is the best. But the advantage CART
has over all the others is diversity.


It's not my favorite series actually. SCCA Spec Miata (where we race) - is.
That's where the real racing happens. Though the SCCA has indeed been
referred to as "tea sipper's racing" - I'll resemble that remark if you
like.

A shame yes, but I'm a believer that CART will return to it's former glory
one day. If not CART, then another series that will take over the formula.
And it better not be the IRL.

Then why are you determined to see this series die? What did it ever do to
you?

I don't either. I just give credit where credit is due. CART had, and still
has a great formula. What's your problem?

I have respect for those guys. So?

Who said it was the pinnacle of motorsport. I'd call that F1.

The reverse has been true in the past as well. Let CART rebuild itself, and
we'll see.

Apparently you do have a problem. I never said it's the end-all - I said
it's a great formula. You somehow take it personally and spend every waking
moment on this forum trashing everybody who agrees with me.

Again, I never said they or the series was the best. There is no best. Most
of the good drivers the series has had have moved on - to F1 or they were
forced into the IRL by their sponsors. I'd hazard to guess that most of
those guys in the IRL would rather not be there either.

And while appreciate other series just as much as you do - hey I have Speed
and Tivo all the touring car series, Aussie V8, Rally, sports cars (NASCAR
is the only one I can't stand) - I just can't watch any one series for very
long. I grow bored with it. CART is great because I can turn them on from
week to week and see them racing on an entirely different type of track,
with an entirely difference car configuration. I find that interesting.

Yeah, you said it.

CFster

"CFster" <cfster (AT) deletemecox (DOT) net> wrote


Uh, don't look now but.......

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:16:39 -0500, "CFster" <cfster (AT) deletemecox (DOT) net>
wrote:


In you oh-so-very-humble opinion, ro are you trying to state that as
fact?

I just want some clarification here as an illustration to Tom Hiett,
who says I confuse people stating thier opinions as opinions or them
stating those opinions as statements of fact.



We have already established that you have absolutely no idea
whatsoever of my view of motorsport. You are making a VERY flawed
assumption that I prefer ovals to all others (which is simply not
true, regardless of you assertions). You are also making an erroneous
assumption that I have some sort of "Americanized" view of motorsport,
which I feel is equaly untrue. I grew as a fan of Formula One and
sports car racing, from SCCA club racing right up to the USRRC. I
never liked NASCAR or any form of "stock car" racing until only very
recently, and then only as a curiosity - nothing more. I follow it
only from a distance, and can rarely even tell you who is driving for
who or who is leading their championship, whereas I can tell you where
everyone is points-wise in ALMS, F-1, etc.

Don't mistake my displeasure with CART and its mismanagement passion
play with a dislike for road racing or as a preference for the IRL,
because if you do you only make an even bigger fool of yourself than
you already are - if that is possible.



Whoa, there, fella'! Isn't that what the CHUMPS have been telling us -
That popularity (as shown by attendance numbers alone) is one of the
myriad of reasons they feel CART is better than the IRL?

That more people must really like CART racing for them to have all
those big attendance numbers at Long Beach, Monterey, Mex., Mexico
City, Surfers, etc.?

Which is it? Is a racing series better because it is popular, or is
popular because it is better?



In your not-so-humble-and overly-egotistical opinion, still, and
nothing more.

You saying it doesn't make it so, nor does it automatically justify it
as being any form of "common sense." If that were so then drivers the
world over would be flocking to CART (many of them those wonderful
rich ride-buyers everyone talks about all the time) to ply their craft
in themost diverse and wonderful racing series in the world - where
they could show how they were such great drivers at so many different
kinds of courses and use that illustration to move to F-1, etc.

True and logical common sense says that CART has lost its luster as a
premier and challenging series for drivers as they have moved more and
more to the ludicrous street circuit races. Those street circuit races
may be great for pumping rather dubious attendance numbers (how many
are actually there to see a race?) and for showing a skyline on TV,
but those concert-tunnel-parade-fests can hardly be called the
ultimate test of a driver's skill or adaptability.



So you are saying that CART has an advantage over and above all other
racing series in the world?



You are saying that more "real racing" happens in SCCA Spec Miata
than, say, in Formula 1? CART? IRL? ALMS? Trans-Am? Grand-Am? World
Rally? Baja? Formula Ford? Shifter karts? Moto-GP? Superbike?
Supercross? New Zealand closed-course jet-boats? 250-Moto-GP? AMA
Supermoto? NASCAR? ARCA? WOO? USAC sprints and midgets?

Regarding SCCA Spec Miata, where you say "thats' where the real racing
happens" - are you implying that Micheal Schumacher would find it more
challenging, from a racing standpoint, than F-1?

Or that Tracy would have had a harder time winnning a championship
there than in CART?



How?



Who?

Will there be a sudden expolsion of national and international
interest in that most chanllenging and "real" racing of the SCCA
Spec Miata that "common sense" (and your oh-so-very-humble-and
knowledgeable-above-all-other-racing-fan opinion and statements of
"fact") tells us should bowl over all other types of motorsports
competition?



Why not? Because you say so?



Because it deserves to. It had all the best elements of motorsports
racing at one time, and it represented North American racing better
than most - and yet it took all those elements of advantage it had
(the "Cars and the Stars", the teams, the sponsors, the venues, the
manufacturers, the image, and most of all the momentum) and squandered
all that for no more than greed, avarice, self-interest, ego, and
arrogance.

Because it failed to protect anything, and in doing so, destroyed
itself, and my confidence in it.

Because it became more and more about the money and less and less
about the product the money provided.

Because it no longer cared about what the fans REALLY wanted and more
and more about what theowners REALLY wanted.

Because it somehow lost itself in the cocktail parties and the
concerts and forgot that the driver and his performance was the key.

Because it no longer remembered where it came from and instead thought
that all that open-wheel racing in Norht America came from it.

This all being strictly my opinion, of course.



What's so great about the 2003 CART Formula?

What makes you credit it more highly than World Rally?

More highly that Moto-GP?

More highly than Supermoto?

More highly than F-1?

More highly than NASCAR?(Which also runs on many types of ovals and
two road courses)

More highly than F-3000?

More highly than Formual Ford?

More highly than sprint cars?

A bigger question might be, why is SCCA Spec Miata more "real racing"
than even your beloved and daunting-above-all-others CART?



You don't seem to, nor do you seem to have ANY respect for NASCAR
drivers (despite the fact many ex-CART drivers have gone there and
failed miserably, whereas one IRL champion has gone there and shined)
or IRL drivers.

In fact, from your postings the only drivers I have seen you refer to
respectably have been CART, F-1, and SCCA Spec Miata drivers.



I wonder who made this statement then?

"It's poor management aside, CART has had the best formula -
regardless of what the crowds think. A combination of ovals, street
circuits and road courses results in a true champion. You can go watch
your cookie cutter IRL series all you want, I'll root for the guys who
can do more than turn left. And you know what? So what if they're
using spec engines. So what if they end up a spec series. It's a true
test of the drivers. If you want technological innovation then go
watch F1."

Let's analyze these comments for a moment, shall we?

"A combination of ovals, street circuits and road courses results in a
true champion" to start.

F-1 does not race on ovals, and on only one street circuit, so are you
saying the driver who holds the crown of "World Driving Champion" in
F-1 is not a "true" champion? He has not competed on high-speed ovals
like a CART driver (or an IRL or NASCAR driver, for that matter) so is
he somehow a lesser champion than a CART series champion?

For that matter, is he less than the national SCCA Spec Miata champion
who does the "real racing"?

Baja drivers, World Rally, NASCAR, etc. drivers all turn right and
left, but are they somehow less skilled and gifted than CART drivers?

Moto-GP, Moto-250-GP, Moto-125-GP, World Superbike, AMA Superbike,
etc. all turn right and left, but are they less skilled and talented
than a CART driver - not even mentioning they do not have the
wonderful advantages of massive, by comparison, tire contact patches,
and ludicrously wimpy, by comparison to Moto-GP, power to weight
ratios, or not having that splendid cocoon of carbon-fiber to protect
them for injury - only leathers and a helmet.

Supermoto competitors turn right and left, and run on dirt and
pavement on the same closed course, but are they lesser motorsports
pilots than your incredible CART heroes?

AMA Superbike riders compete on tracks that are part oval and part
road course, as do ALMS and Grand-Am drivers (along with other
classes), but are they not the measure of those god-like drivers fo
CART who are the "true" champions?

Do any of these even remotely measure up to those transcidental icons
racing the "real racing" in SCCA Spec Miata?

You say that CART is a "true test of the drivers," right?

Well, if that is an indisputable fact, then how can F-1 be a "true
test of the drivers" since they do not compete on ovals?

After all, didn't you say that "If you want technological innovation
then go watch F1" and then say you thought the "pinnacle of
motorsport" was F-1?

So, is F-1 the pinnacle of motorsport simply because of its
technological innovation, or because it has some of the world's
greatest drivers, even thought those drivers are not truly tested like
they are in CART?



When? Please tell us a single year that the drivers in CART were FAR
better than the drivers in F-1?

Please, just name one year.

And while you're at it, tell me the years that the drivers in SCCA
Spec Miata were better than the dirvers in F-1? CART? The IRL? World
Rally? ALMS? etc.?

What with them being the only ones doing the "reall racing" and all.



You said it was the only true test of drivers. If that is indeed true,
then it must be the end-all for a driver. That is if he wants to prove
he can withstand teh only true test of driving ability, what with all
its diversity and superiority because fo that diversity, to F-1 and
every other form of racing.

And then certainly he has to put himself to trial in that ONLY bastion
of "real racing" - SCCA Spec Miata.



So far not one person has stepped up and agreed with you. I have seen
no one else say that CART was the the most true test of a driver. I
have heard no one esle suggest that CART drivers are, or were, ever
better than F-1 drivers, and that F-1 should only be watched for its
technological innovation, but that if you wanted to see a true test of
drivers you looked, not at F-1 or anywhere else, but at CART.

Nor I have EVER seen or heard anyone on these forums EVER say that the
"real racing" in the world was happening in SCCA Spec Miata.



You said it was the only true test of a driver.



What series is the best for being a true test for a driver?



But if it were absolutely the true test for a driver wouldn't they
want to remain, year after year, to prove they were among the best at
THE true test for a driver?



So let's see if I get this straight - Any driver who moves from CART
to F-1 does so freely and without any outside pressures (be careful
here or you will damage one of your own previous arguments. I ahve to
be careful now to state when I am setting a trap or Chris Story says I
was never setting one in the forst place), but any driver moving from
CART to the IRL does so ONLY due to outside pressures (be carful again
so that you don't step on your own privates)?



Only a guess? Previously you have been so forceful and completely sure
of your opinions being facts, from everything from knowing other
posters intellects and racing preferences to being theonly judge of
what is a true test for a driver.

And now you hazard only a GUESS?

Of course, no driver wants to win an Indy 500 in his career, right?

That could not POSSIBLY be any sort of motivator, right?

Not with CART being that true test and all, and SCCA Spec Miata being
where the "real racing" is, eh?

And that crappy old F-1 isn't for drivers or driving, just for
technical innovation, correct?



Given your statements, I seriously have my own doubts about that.



Whooooooooo-Peeeeeeeeeeee! He bought Speed TV and he knows how to
operate a Tivo!

He never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, or drove a NASCAR, IRL,
ALMS, Baja, or F-1 car, yet he knows what the a "true test" of a
driver is, but he can operate a Tivo and watches Speed so he must be
the world's true expert on tests of drivers and common sense, right?



Why? They turn left and right and run on road courses, and those
drivers from the "true test" series get their brains beat in whenever
they try to race there.



A.D.D. or too many preconceived notions predicated on political views
and self-important, condescending, pretentious attitude?



Even when it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring that even a meth junkie would
have a hard time staying awake during one of the street parades?

I think I get it now - You thinkthe true test of a driver is holding
station in the field until he can give his pit crew a chance to
advance his position during a series mandated pit stop, right?

Man, oh man, is that interesting.



Yeah, I did, and CART is.

And it made itself into that all by itself.

I have never said that road racing is more popular than oval racing in
America.
I said that I am a big road racing fan ( I have never discussed the fact
that I do enjoy dirt and short flat ovals).
Oval racing, when you add together IRL, NASCAR, USAC, WOO, etc., oval racing
will win out in this country.
Also, the fact that, in the right seat, you can see the whole track makes
oval racing more popular. I have argued with my brother-in-law however
that, even if you can see the whole track, you are only watching four turns.
On a road course, and given a good seat, you might see five or six turns
(now there is something you can argue all day with).
CART (or USAC when it was in charge)was, in my humble opinion, great because
it had everything and required more from the teams accordingly. No other
series has had that kind of assortment of venues.
As far as CART not racing at MidOhio, well, that is sad and hopefully they
will be back.

Ben Tackitt


CART is, according to our beloved CHUMPS, a REAL road racing series,