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98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
Jeep and Willys Vehicles Discussions on Jeep and Willys vehicles. (rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys)
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#21
 
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Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel -
05-09-2007
, 12:32 PM
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Funny that, from what I understand: Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe :-) And all this time I thought stupidity was the most abundant. :-) |
FRH
#22
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Funny that, from what I understand: Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe :-) nrs wrote: On May 9, 11:41 am, SnoMan <a... (AT) snoman (DOT) com> wrote: On 9 May 2007 07:52:55 -0700, nrs <neale... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Energy in itself is not a problem, we have solar, wind, nuclear, coal, etc. The serious problem is how to run vehicles. Petroleum fuels are the only viable way to do it right now, just think of a jet. Ethanol, hydrogen, nothing is efficient enough yet to compete with direct burning of fossil fuels. We also need to save some petroleum for lubrication of machinery. Another thing that is often overlooked is that food production is what it is thanks to the use of fertilizers made from petroleum, we are actually eating our oil supply. Hydrogen is very efficent but there is two problems with using it. First currently it is made from crude and cost about 10 to 12 bucks a gallon. Next is its storage. To be stored in a liquid state for greatest fuel density it has to be keep extremely cold. (about 423 degrees below zero) As far as energy density, gasoline has about 18,500 BTU's per pound and Hydrogen about 60,000 BTU's per pound (and a gallon weighs about .6 lbs). Pure ethanol has only about 8500 BTU's per pound. As a comparison, Propane has about 22,500 BTU's per pound and a #2 Deisel has about 21,500 BTU's per pound or just a bit less than Propane (this is lbs not gallons and a gallon of Propane weighs 4 lbs) ----------------- TheSnoMan.com Those are interesting facts. About hydrogen, what I'm considering is that 1) if it is obtained from crude, it is more efficient to burn the fossil fuel directly rather than use it to get hydrogen and then burn the hydrogen. Plus we end up using more fossil fuels. If the separation here takes less energy than what is released when burning hydrogen by reaction with oxygen, it might work but I donīt think any existing process is this efficient yet. Any chemist here that could clear up this point? 2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it takes more energy to seperate than you get back by burning. There is no way around this, in the end hydrogen is just a way to transfer (not all that efficiently) the energy used to obtain it to another use like running a car. Itīs not really a source of energy. Its like a compressed spring, once it is compressed it can provide a lot of energy, but not as much as it took to compress the spring.- Hidequoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#23
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Those are interesting facts. About hydrogen, what I'm considering is that 1) if it is obtained from crude, it is more efficient to burn the fossil fuel directly rather than use it to get hydrogen and then burn the hydrogen. Plus we end up using more fossil fuels. If the separation here takes less energy than what is released when burning hydrogen by reaction with oxygen, it might work but I donīt think any existing process is this efficient yet. Any chemist here that could clear up this point? |
from cracking crude. When you make Hydrogen from Methane you get
Hyddrogen and Ammonia which is used in fertilizer production. They
have been searching for years to fund a cheap way to split Hydrogen
and Oxygem atoms apart in water for unlimited fuel source but right
now it take more energy to make it han is recoverd when using water.
Quote:
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2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it takes more energy to seperate than you get back by burning. There is no way around this, in the end hydrogen is just a way to transfer (not all that efficiently) the energy used to obtain it to another use like running a car. Itīs not really a source of energy. Its like a compressed spring, once it is compressed it can provide a lot of energy, but not as much as it took to compress the spring. |
A interesting point of view.
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TheSnoMan.com
#24
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Funny that, from what I understand: Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe |
In the universe yes as stars and vast clouds of interstellar gas are
made mostly of hydrogen but on the earth, free hydrogen in its native
state is rare. Given the tempatures needed for it to because a liquid
it is easy to see why. Hydrgen is a building block though is all
fossil fuels but it is not in the form of free atoms.
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TheSnoMan.com
#25
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To me this would have more potential to reduce emissions and increase power since ethanol has a high octane rating and could take advantage of the compression ratio of a diesel engine. |
ratios without needing high octane fuel. In fact, if you had high
octane fuel that wouldn't self ignite, it wouldn't burn. Are you going
to suggest putting spark plugs in a Diesel engine?
I would hazard a guess that the 2% Diesel is so that the fuel will burn.
Ivan
#26
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Hyddrogen and Ammonia which is used in fertilizer production. They have been searching for years to fund a cheap way to split Hydrogen and Oxygem atoms apart in water for unlimited fuel source but right now it take more energy to make it han is recoverd when using water. |
thermodynamics?
IMHO, our best hope is to be able to separate them using a cheaper
source of energy, such as sunlight, because then it doesn't matter
whether we can recover all the energy that went into it.
Ivan
#27
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Funny that, from what I understand: Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe :-) |
--
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#28
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Most Hydrogen is made from Methane gas etheir naturally occuring or from cracking crude. When you make Hydrogen from Methane you get Hyddrogen and Ammonia which is used in fertilizer production. They have been searching for years to fund a cheap way to split Hydrogen and Oxygem atoms apart in water for unlimited fuel source but right now it take more energy to make it han is recoverd when using water. |
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
#29
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cow flatulence: |
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"Jeeps can get up, and jeeps can also go down. Why can't Bill do either?"
-- Nancy Hughes III
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
#30
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On 2007-05-08, c <c (AT) me (DOT) org> wrote: To me this would have more potential to reduce emissions and increase power since ethanol has a high octane rating and could take advantage of the compression ratio of a diesel engine. The whole point of a Diesel engine is that you can get high compression ratios without needing high octane fuel. In fact, if you had high octane fuel that wouldn't self ignite, it wouldn't burn. Are you going to suggest putting spark plugs in a Diesel engine? I would hazard a guess that the 2% Diesel is so that the fuel will burn. Ivan |
I'm not suggesting anything. I am merely stating that the fuel is
available and it being used. I do not know anyone using it. I do know
however, that diesels modified for performance and racing sometimes use
a supplemental alcohol injection system, so apparently the two fuels do
work well together. I am pretty much diesel ignorant beyond that.
Chris
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