We bought a 2004 Lexus ES330 new . We looked at Avalon and Camry before
we bought. The ES330 is basically the same running gear and engine as
the Avalon and the Camry. FWD 3.3 liter 6cyl. It was updated in '04 to
3.3 liters from the previous 3.0 liters (the ES330) The car is a great
car, we have the Navigation also and it works reasonably well although
can be confusing at times.We have been very happy with the car
.....until last Sunday.....

Now the bad:
While in Las Vegas this last weekend (1-28, 1-29-06) I was driving the
car and stopped at a light. The brake pedal then slowly sunk to the
floor! Whoa! says I, this ain't right! I pumped the pedal and the brake
returned to a normal brake height. At the next light, guess what?... it
sunk to the floor again! No brakes! I pumped it again a couple of times
and the brake pedal returns to normal height. I does this 2- 3 times
again on the way back to our lodging in Las Vegas. When I parked it in
the parking space at our apt, I was able to make it go to the floor
again with very little pressure on the brake pedal.
We called Lexus of Las Vegas on Monday 1-30-06 and had them flatbed the
car to the dealer for repairs. They at first told me it was a "bubble
in the brake line and they "bled it out"...BS..there was no bubble,
there was no loss of fluid, there was no repair. They said because they
"couldn't duplicate the problem" they weren't authorized to change the
master cyl. That we should just come pick it up and drive it until it
looses it brakes again!
I said .."NO WAY!!!!" Fix it , it's under warranty and it only has
17,000 miles on it.
Well it turns out that Lexus won't let there service mgrs. make a
decision on their own, but must be able to "duplicate the problem" in
order to authorize a repair.
My position was that the brakes had failed not once on Sunday, but
several times and that anything over once was one time to many.
I asked if the service manager would put his wife in a car that had the
brake pedal go to the floor and tell her that he can't do anything
unless he actually sees the brake pedal on the floor. ( He'll be
sleeping on the couch for a while!)

I told him I wasn't willing to see the brake pedal on the floor and my
significant other on a stretcher being taken to a hospital because he
couldn't "duplicate the failure" in his shop. I asked him if he had
heard the term "intermittent failure" . He said yes, but his mantra was
: I can't replace the part unless I can "dup......Blah , Blah , Blah" .

We live in Los Angeles, the car's in Las Vegas, & so is my S.O. And
nothing is fixed, NO loan car for 3 days.
I then called the Lexus dealer in Van Nuys where we bought the car new
(Keyes Lexus in Van Nuys Ca) and asked if they could intervene. I got
the same answer: We can't do anything unless they can "Duplicate the
failure"
Then I tried to call the Lexus customer service line (1800 25-LEXUS)
and there's no answer at 4:15 pm PST. I tried it 4 times , It just
rings and rings and finally hangs up on you. ( I guess their cars only
break before 4:15 PM )
Bottom line: You may think you're getting the best, but sometimes you
don't get what you pay for.
Today is Wednesday, 2-1-06 and the car has been at Las Vegas Lexus for
3 days, no repair, NO loan car. Refusal to tow it to our home so we can
have it fixed in Los Angeles and ....A very Pi---- off customer.
A customer who when we signed the purchase contract also was given a
warranty.. and they are not living up to their obligations on the
agreement we both entered into.

So folks, like the housing market, so is the Vehicle market turning.
Customer satisfaction is slowly going out the window. I hope the
quality stays above water until Somebody out there cares enough to take
care of the customer after the sale. If not, Toyota Motors USA will be
joining GM and Ford, et al, in the slippery slide.
By the way, I was in the automotive field in the 70's and 80's and saw
the dismal products that were made in those two decades, so I left the
business. I ran an automotive service center. I still am an automotive
enthusiast and work on my own antique, classic & street rod vehicles
that embrace all of the new technology. I am not afraid of the new
technology and have a broad understanding of it including the
Computerization of the automobile.

BUT... I have a warranty.

And thus endeth my considerations of the LS460 as my next car!

I agree this is bad management on that dealer.

Even though I agree with them on not replacing any part that they can't
seem to find the problem on currently.
But at least offer you a loaner car and have the technicians drive it
for extended miles ( with your permission ) until the problem occurs.


--
Nad1370

Interesting. Be even more interesting to hear the dealership service
manager's version.

You are clearly misrepresenting the service guy's position. He is using his
judgment in deciding what to replace or not replace. That judgment is based
on what his shop can observe as a failure itself. This is not unusual. Very
few warranty repairs will be done of any sort unless the repair shop can
duplicate the complaint. Nothing new here.


"2sw" <willysworld (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote

"2sw" <willysworld (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote

Thanks to lemon laws, dealerships will not attempt to repair any condition
that they cannot observe. For example, if they replaced the master cylinder
and the condition continued, they would already have one lemon law attempt.
On the other hand, they should have questioned you very carefully and took a
long road test with you so that they can duplicate the condition.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

I wonder if Toyota would follow this practice?

Ken




"2sw" <willysworld (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote

"NJ Vike" <ErieLackawanna (AT) Scranton (DOT) com> wrote

Yes, Toyota does follow this practice.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Nad1370" <Nad1370.22l24z (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.yourdomain.com.au> wrote in
message news:Nad1370.22l24z (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.yourdomain.com.au...

Yes, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect that the dealer should replace
a part that appears to be operating properly.

That seems like a reasonable, albeit temporary, solution to this strange
problem. But what if they don't find anything wrong?

David Z Wrote:

Then give it back to the customer and explain what tests they did in
order to duplicate the problem.
Also have it documented that the customer came in with an issue
reagrding brake operation but could not duplicate.

Now if the customer insists there is a problem, have a regional rep.
take a look at it and see what he thinks.
If still not satisfied....call the 800 number and open up a case.
Although If the dealer, rep, couldn't find anything wrong in the brake
operation then it's pointless to go this far.

Regarding on the pedal sinking to the floor...Sometimes with the A.C.
on sitting on a stop light with my foot on the brake pedal. My brake
pedal also sinks about 1/4-3/8 of an inch. To me I think it's normal
since the brake booster is vaccum assisted. But if it goes all the way
down to the floor ....then there is a problem.


--
Nad1370

Brakes fail for only a couple of reasons. So lets first consider what's
possibly wrong and then sort out who's to pay for its repair.

Either the master cylinder is defective, or there's a leak in a caliper
or brake hose, or, exhaust is heating a brake line to the point of
boiling the fluid. ALL the latter can be quickly checked (lost fluid and
signs of a leak, examination of all brake lines near the exhausts) and,
if found OK, leaving the master cylinder by default. What's the big deal?