On Oct 5, 5:55*pm, "Dori A Schmetterling" <nob... (AT) spam (DOT) co.uk> wrote:
Piffle is a little insulting. I could say the same thing about your
assertion that Germany is the most important car market in the world.
If we were talking about France and England as well as Germany being
major markets for base model Mercedes Benz then you might have a leg
to stand on, but Germany itself is just too small to make a real
difference to Mercedes sales volumes. I base my assertions on changes
in Mercedes sales number over the past 15 years. Look them up.

All of what I have said is of course my opinion. I believe that there
has been a drive from ownership of the company to increase sales
volumes and that drive has lead to a fall in quality over the past 15
years.

In my first post, I stated that IMHO the quality of their cars hit its
nadir in 2003-04. Yes, the CLK is almost 7 years old now from
prodcution (5 from delivery), but it was given as example of the types
of quality problems that the company was experiencing then. It was not
meant as an example of build quality today. That would be silly. The C
class that we bought 2 years ago has been more reliable, but like the
CLK it is only one car so who cares what happens with either of them.

The OP asked for opinions as to what caused Mercedes quality to fall.
My opinion is that increased sales volumes as well as the inclusion of
too much new content too fast caused that drop in quality. IMHO all of
the German car companies have fallen into the trap of building over
contented cars that have too little engineering time spent on new
systems, but that does not explain all of what has been seen in poor
build quality. There are also problems coming from the assembly
process itself. I do not think that blaming any particular factory,
which has been a popular thing to do in the car community, holds
water. I think that it is the chosen manucturing process that is more
at fault. I further believe that these changes were intentionally come
to by ownership to increase sales volumes across the price range.

You ask for support for my opinions. It is an opinion. I am not going
to support it. You can believe what you want to believe, and I will
believe what I want to believe. The facts that I base my opinion on
are mostly widely avaialable, and I have merely come to a different
conclusion. Have a great day, and enjoy your car.

On Oct 7, 12:22*pm, Howard <ho... (AT) juno (DOT) com> wrote:
Actually it's Mercedes' biggest market by volume. Get the Daimler
annual report and read it.


I have -- they're in the Daimler annual report.

Quite!

To Howard re "your assertion that Germany is the most important car market
in the world."

That, too, is piffle, as I made no such claim. Nor did you provide any
support for your claim about MB cars being for the wealthy, even 20 years
ago.

I think my use of the word is quite justified, as it means "nonsense":

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/piffle?view=uk


" It is an opinion. I am not going to support it." Correct.

"The facts that I base my opinion on are mostly widely avaialable..."
That's the question!

The fact that MB had quality issues on some models is not in dispute, and I
am sure the heavy loading with 'cutting-edge' electroncs has something to do
with it. Furthermore there have been and probably still are dealer issues
in Europe and North America, though I have been lucky with my experiences.
The Merc-owned garage I use in west London (no sales showroom attached!) has
given me very good service without always trying to charge me top dollar.

To counteract problems in the UK the company bought up the dealerships in
the three (or four, can't remember) main metropolitan areas as they became
available, having previously only owned a handful (or less).

DAS

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<erschroedinger (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

On Oct 7, 12:22 pm, Howard <ho... (AT) juno (DOT) com> wrote:
Actually it's Mercedes' biggest market by volume. Get the Daimler
annual report and read it.


I have -- they're in the Daimler annual report.

pheonix1t (AT) gmail (DOT) com schrieb:
Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club
ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in
the world with respect to engineering and testing.

The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives
the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each
brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by
Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in
reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes
go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen.


http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatistik/2007.asp?ComponentID=212231&SourcePageID=214856
http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannenstatistik_2008/tab.asp?ComponentID=250016&SourcePageID=250114
http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannenstatistik_2008/deutsche_autos_ganz_vorn/default.asp?ComponentID=249532&SourcePageID=250114


Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they
got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With
respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will
have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand
market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars.

--

Roland Franzius

These ADAC statistics are useful (you don't have a link to the full results,
so you, or does it need a subscription?). I have not seen them in years,
before which I saw them annually. I concur that in all classes where the
Japanese brands were represented they came top. Interesting that they don't
anymore.

One should add that only makes selling >10 000 per year are included (or
whatever the number is now).

The once thing that the statistics do not take into account is the mileage.
Thus the big Mercs and BMWs seemed to have a lot of various faults, but when
normalised by mileage (many of these big saloons incurred very high annual
mileages) they were not really bad.

It is a real pity that the British equivalent of the ADAC, the Automobile
Association (AA) or its slightly smaller sister (RAC) do not publish their
breakdown stats. I suppose they are too scared of the manufacturers. Maybe
it won't look good when Britain's best-selling cars like the Ford Focus turn
out to be 'lemons'...

DAS

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"Roland Franzius" <roland.franzius (AT) uos (DOT) de> wrote

[...]

On Oct 9, 3:57*am, Roland Franzius <roland.franz... (AT) uos (DOT) de> wrote:
I can't say anything for the validity of what you're posting. I'm in
USA.
I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. This is from
consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers.
This is for at least the past 10 years. Lexus has won 14 years for JD
Powers dependability.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependability-study-14th-year-straight/

No german auto maker can claim this. I'm pretty sure more autos are
sold in USA than Germany.

Interesting to see the results from different markets....
I can say that I believe European drivers are probably safer (better)
drivers than most Americans.
There are way too many drunk driving accidents/deaths in USA.

Oskar

Are you suggesting that the largest motoring organsation in Europe is
producing lies?

The difference between publications like Consumer Reports and the ADAC
breakdown statistics is that the latter is based on facts.

The statistics are based on actual breakdowns they have handled, and have
nothing to do with perceptions and prejudice, nor with quality of driving or
rate of accidents. However, quality of maintenance may have a bearing.

Try asking the AAA for its annual figures. I bet they have them. If they
don't, they're daft.

DAS

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<pheonix1t (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

[...]
I can't say anything for the validity of what you're posting. I'm in
USA.
I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. This is from
consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers.
This is for at least the past 10 years. Lexus has won 14 years for JD
Powers dependability.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependability-study-14th-year-straight/

No german auto maker can claim this. I'm pretty sure more autos are
sold in USA than Germany.

Interesting to see the results from different markets....
I can say that I believe European drivers are probably safer (better)
drivers than most Americans.
There are way too many drunk driving accidents/deaths in USA.

Oskar

On Oct 10, 4:02*am, "Dori A Schmetterling" <nob... (AT) spam (DOT) co.uk> wrote:
If you would take the time to read the NHTSA website:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from
opinions.

Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you
provided says!
However, it does seem very convenient that ADAC gives all german autos
the highest marks.
That does seem VERY convenient.

In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be
published.
There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public.

Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits
due to this.
From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer
reports most of the time.

Consumer reports got sued by smarter image for making information
public regarding the poor performance of 'ionic breeze' air purifier.
According to the commercials the smarter image product was the best
you can get.
After consumer reports did scientific testing, the results showed the
smarter image product had poor performance!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16715088/

As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was
obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be.

Car companies do the same thing....
http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortune/index.htm

I gave no link.

Your problem seems to be that you can't stand 'German cars' being top of the
table.

The point the OP was making was that after years of Japanese cars dominating
most of the tables they are slipping down. If you bother to read the rest
of the related correspondence, incl mine, you will see that only cars that
exceed a certain sales figure (10 000 per year when I was readin the tables)
are included to ensure some statistical validity.

The ADAC does not issue opinions.

DAS
--
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<pheonix1t (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

[...]

If you would take the time to read the NHTSA website:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from
opinions.

Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you
provided says!
However, it does seem very convenient that ADAC gives all german autos
the highest marks.
That does seem VERY convenient.

In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be
published.
There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public.

Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits
due to this.
From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer
reports most of the time.

Consumer reports got sued by smarter image for making information
public regarding the poor performance of 'ionic breeze' air purifier.
According to the commercials the smarter image product was the best
you can get.
After consumer reports did scientific testing, the results showed the
smarter image product had poor performance!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16715088/

As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was
obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be.

Car companies do the same thing....
http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortune/index.htm

PS. The data the ADAC publishes is very detailed. What Roland Franzius
posted is just the 'tip of the iceberg'.

The info is classified by class of car (e.g. compact, medium, large etc) and
type of breakdown, such as electrical and so on.

The only shortcoming that I saw was that there was no relation between
frequency of breakdown and annual mileage covered. Thus the bigger saloons
tended to have more breakdowns, but it was also known that these tended to
cover greater distances. However failures per mile was not calculated.

I have not seen the detail myself for years as my access to the members'
magazine ended, so don't know exactly what they publish these days. Maybe
Roland can tell us.

I had a quick look at the NHTSA website you (pheonix1) mentioned but could
not easily see breakdown statistics. Anyway, unless the AAA and similar
organisations report their internal data to the government, the NHTSA would
have no insight into what actually happens.

All I saw was a Recalls section, which is not the same thing.

Your statement
"In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be
published. There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info
public."

says it all.

And why don't they like it? Because it would show them up.

I think this supports Roland F's contention that "the German auto market is
the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing."
It is the only one where the mechanical facts about cars are made public.

Read his post again, this time more carefully.

DAS

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"Dori A Schmetterling" <nobody (AT) spam (DOT) co.uk> wrote