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Poor MB Build Quality -- Why do you guys still buy MB?
Mercedes-Benz Mercedes-Benz Cars Discussions (alt.auto.mercedes)
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Re: Poor MB Build Quality -- Why do you guys still buy MB? -
10-12-2009
, 04:20 PM
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On Oct 9, 3:57*am, Roland Franzius <roland.franz... (AT) uos (DOT) de> wrote: pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com schrieb: Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! *That's Mercedes (as well as other german cars). Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatisti....... Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. -- Roland Franzius I can't say anything for the validity of what you're posting. *I'm in USA. I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. * |
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This is from consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers. |
reliability. That you think they do, well...
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This is for at least the past 10 years. *Lexus has won 14 years for JD Powers dependability. |
recommended by Consumer Reports due to sub-par reliability). But if
that's all that matters, we'd all be driving a Prius (tops in
reliability).
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http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependabilit... No german auto maker can claim this. *I'm pretty sure more autos are sold in USA than Germany. Interesting to see the results from different markets.... I can say that I believe European drivers are probably safer (better) drivers than most Americans. There are way too many drunk driving accidents/deaths in USA. Oskar |
#22
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On Oct 10, 4:02*am, "Dori A Schmetterling" <nob... (AT) spam (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Are you suggesting that the largest motoring organsation in Europe is producing lies? The difference between publications like Consumer Reports and the ADAC breakdown statistics is that the latter is based on facts. The statistics are based on actual breakdowns they have handled, and have nothing to do with perceptions and prejudice, nor with quality of driving or rate of accidents. *However, quality of maintenance may have a bearing. Try asking the AAA *for its annual figures. *I bet they have them. *If they don't, they're daft. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" ---<pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:0e8fcb4c-90eb-4769-b620-f853f8276519 (AT) x37g2000yqj (DOT) googlegroups.com.... [...] Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatisti....... Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. -- Roland Franzius I can't say anything for the validity of what you're posting. *I'm in USA. I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. *This is from consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers. This is for at least the past 10 years. *Lexus has won 14 years for JD Powers dependability. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependabilit... No german auto maker can claim this. *I'm pretty sure more autos are sold in USA than Germany. Interesting to see the results from different markets.... I can say that I believe European drivers are probably safer (better) drivers than most Americans. There are way too many drunk driving accidents/deaths in USA. Oskar If you would take the time to read the NHTSA website:http://www.nhtsa.dot..gov/ you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from opinions. |
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Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you provided says! However, it does seem very convenient that ADAC gives all german autos the highest marks. That does seem VERY convenient. In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be published. There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public. |
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Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits due to this. |
That's the only auto maker that's sued that I know of. Nothing about
reliability.
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From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer reports most of the time. Consumer reports got sued by smarter image for making information public regarding the poor performance of 'ionic breeze' air purifier. According to the commercials the smarter image product was the best you can get. After consumer reports did scientific testing, the results showed the smarter image product had poor performance!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16715088/ As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be. |
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| Car companies do the same thing....http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortu... |
#23
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PS. *The data the ADAC publishes is very detailed. *What Roland Franzius posted is just the 'tip of the iceberg'. The info is classified by class of car (e.g. compact, medium, large etc) and type of breakdown, such as electrical and so on. The only shortcoming that I saw was that there was no relation between frequency of breakdown and annual mileage covered. *Thus the bigger saloons tended to have more breakdowns, but it was also known that these tended to cover greater distances. *However failures per mile was not calculated. I have not seen the detail myself for years as my access to the members' magazine ended, so don't know exactly what they publish these days. *Maybe Roland can tell us. I had a quick look at the NHTSA website you (pheonix1) mentioned but could not easily see breakdown statistics. *Anyway, unless the AAA and similar organisations report their internal data to the government, the NHTSA would have no insight into what actually happens. All I saw was a Recalls section, which is not the same thing. *Your statement "In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be published. *There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public." says it all. And why don't they like it? *Because it would show them up. I think this supports Roland F's contention that "the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing." It is the only one where the mechanical facts about cars are made public. Read his post again, this time more carefully. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- "Dori A Schmetterling" <nob... (AT) spam (DOT) co.uk> wrote in messagenews:5I6dneIdgYgQTk_XnZ2dnUVZ8i2dnZ2d (AT) pipex (DOT) net... I gave no link. Your problem seems to be that you can't stand 'German cars' being top of the table. The point the OP was making was that after years of Japanese cars dominating most of the tables they are slipping down. *If you bother to read the rest of the related correspondence, incl mine, you will see that only cars that exceed a certain sales figure (10 000 per year when I was readin the tables) are included to ensure some statistical validity. The ADAC does not issue opinions. DAS -- To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:8084801f-60c6-4deb-9463-4575008a257d (AT) d34g2000vbm (DOT) googlegroups.com.... [...] If you would take the time to read the NHTSA website: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from opinions. Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you provided says! However, it does seem very convenient that ADAC gives all german autos the highest marks. That does seem VERY convenient. In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be published. There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public. Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits due to this. From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer reports most of the time. Consumer reports got sued by smarter image for making information public regarding the poor performance of 'ionic breeze' air purifier. According to the commercials the smarter image product was the best you can get. After consumer reports did scientific testing, the results showed the smarter image product had poor performance!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16715088/ As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be. Car companies do the same thing.... http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortu... |
I think what you are saying is correct. I do notice that getting
accurate information about this sort of thing is hard!
I do not recall the law suits regarding automakers in USA blocking
breakdown info being made public but I'm sure google can show it!
Oskar
#24
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"Dori A Schmetterling" <nob... (AT) spam (DOT) co.uk> wrote: PS. *The data the ADAC publishes is very detailed. *What Roland Franzius posted is just the 'tip of the iceberg'. ... The only shortcoming that I saw was that there was no relation between frequency of breakdown and annual mileage covered. *Thus the bigger saloons tended to have more breakdowns, but it was also known that these tended to cover greater distances. *However failures per mile was not calculated. ... DAS, I think what you are saying is correct. *I do notice that getting accurate information about this sort of thing is hard! |
'data' that is found. For example, the JD Powers report that was
provided has in its caveats:
"...subjectivity can skew the results. For instance, Lexus owners may
tend to report that their vehicles are running just fine out of pride
and loyalty to their brand."
The bottom line is that when you have self-selection bias present and
variations in reportability threshholds, your conclusions are going to
be effectively worthless. FYI, CR has this same problem with under/
over reporting behaviors, which can make its statements also a bit
dicey.
Finally, even if one is able to be fully objective in one's
reliability analysis another factor that needs to be taken into
account is the "period of performance" of interest. For example, one
can design a product so that it has great reliability during its
warranty, but then falls apart, or one can design the product to
generally last, even if this results in more random near-term
failures.
A classic example of this is the Toyota Camry (aka Lexus E250, if you
recall back a few years): it has a great reputation of being trouble-
free for the first ~100K miles ... and then everything breaks down
virtually at once. If you spend several thousand to get all of these
repairs done, the car is then good to around 175K miles...and then you
have another rash of multiple breakdowns again.
As such, if you only keep your Toyota for (proverbially) 99,999 miles
before you sell it, congratulations, you've dodged those failures and
you claim that its reliability is bulletproof ... its merely the 2nd
owner who gets nailed with $5K worth of repairs in his first ~25K
miles, which means that he's going to have an entirely different
opinion on Toyota's reliability.
And all of this is said to simply illustrate that when we take a step
back for a holistic look at reliability, we can see how critically
important it can be for where we choose to draw the lines for our
period of interest.
-hh
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pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com schrieb: Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! *That's Mercedes (as well as other german cars). Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatisti...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen... Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. -- Roland Franzius |
should buy Lexus and stay happy that way.
Here (in Denmark) Mercedes is still a very popular car, in particular
by Taxi owners. Cars are reliable (not wirhout flaws thouh), service
is brilliant (necessary to make up for the flaws) and reselling market
is good. These are all important parameters for their business, and
this makes the picture more complete talking about total reliability.
Another important aspect is the Mercedes spare parts policy. Prices
are in general very reasonable in particular compared to Japanese
cars. And they are almost always readily available from one day to the
next, even for very old models. Japanese cars are usually not
guaranteed supported wtih spare parts for more than 10 years.
Yes, there has in a period been some serious flaws, which Mercedes was
reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but
not enough to make people like me stop loving it.
#26
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pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com schrieb: Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! That's Mercedes (as well as other german cars). Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatisti...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen... Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. -- Roland Franzius |
should buy Lexus and stay happy that way.
Here (in Denmark) Mercedes is still a very popular car, in particular
by Taxi owners. Cars are reliable (not wirhout flaws thouh), service
is brilliant (necessary to make up for the flaws) and reselling market
is good. These are all important parameters for their business, and
this makes the picture more complete talking about total reliability.
Another important aspect is the Mercedes spare parts policy. Prices
are in general very reasonable in particular compared to Japanese
cars. And they are almost always readily available from one day to the
next, even for very old models. Japanese cars are usually not
guaranteed supported wtih spare parts for more than 10 years.
Yes, there has in a period been some serious flaws, which Mercedes was
reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but
not enough to make people like me stop loving it.
#27
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On Oct 9, 9:57 am, Roland Franzius <roland.franz... (AT) uos (DOT) de> wrote: pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com schrieb: Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! That's Mercedes (as well as other german cars). Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatisti...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen... Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. -- Roland Franzius Funny discussion anyway. People who hate Mercedes but love Lexus should buy Lexus and stay happy that way. Here (in Denmark) Mercedes is still a very popular car, in particular by Taxi owners. Cars are reliable (not wirhout flaws thouh), service is brilliant (necessary to make up for the flaws) and reselling market is good. These are all important parameters for their business, and this makes the picture more complete talking about total reliability. Another important aspect is the Mercedes spare parts policy. Prices are in general very reasonable in particular compared to Japanese cars. And they are almost always readily available from one day to the next, even for very old models. Japanese cars are usually not guaranteed supported wtih spare parts for more than 10 years. Yes, there has in a period been some serious flaws, which Mercedes was reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but not enough to make people like me stop loving it. |
#28
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Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys me into Mercedes, especially I do most of the work myself. For example, the parts for my 84 190D are easily available from multiple sources. However, there were many instances when I cannot get parts for 15+ years old American or Japanese cars then I had to go to junkyards. |
it's the fact that half the time the parts I get (OEM stuff, mind you)
is defective. I love my old Merc and when I finally get a good part the
car feels like it's worth it to fix it but this is getting to be a PITA
that I never experienced with any of my Japanese cars. 14 freakin'
injectors to get 5 good ones?!??
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| Jens wrote: On Oct 9, 9:57 am, Roland Franzius <roland.franz... (AT) uos (DOT) de> wrote: pheoni... (AT) gmail (DOT) com schrieb: Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! That's Mercedes (as well as other german cars). Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatisti...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen...http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannen... Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. -- Roland Franzius Funny discussion anyway. People who hate Mercedes but love Lexus should buy Lexus and stay happy that way. Here (in Denmark) Mercedes is still a very popular car, in particular by Taxi owners. Cars are reliable (not wirhout flaws thouh), service is brilliant (necessary to make up for the flaws) and reselling market is good. These are all important parameters for their business, and this makes the picture more complete talking about total reliability. Another important aspect is the Mercedes spare parts policy. Prices are in general very reasonable in particular compared to Japanese cars. And they are almost always readily available from one day to the next, even for very old models. Japanese cars are usually not guaranteed supported wtih spare parts for more than 10 years. Yes, there has in a period been some serious flaws, which Mercedes was reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but not enough to make people like me stop loving it. |
#29
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Wan-ning Tan wrote: Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys me into Mercedes, especially I do most of the work myself. For example, the parts for my 84 190D are easily available from multiple sources. However, there were many instances when I cannot get parts for 15+ years old American or Japanese cars then I had to go to junkyards. I don't have any issues concerning parts *availability* for my '92 300D, it's the fact that half the time the parts I get (OEM stuff, mind you) is defective. I love my old Merc and when I finally get a good part the car feels like it's worth it to fix it but this is getting to be a PITA that I never experienced with any of my Japanese cars. 14 freakin' injectors to get 5 good ones?!?? |
polished MB parts. At ebay.de you get MB parts "new" for about 1/3 of
the shop price. No warranty of course, but return possibility. I tried a
"new" headlamp washer motor, but it was broken internally. Probably the
result of a head on accident.
--
Roland Franzius
#30
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JD schrieb: Wan-ning Tan wrote: Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys me into Mercedes, especially I do most of the work myself. For example, the parts for my 84 190D are easily available from multiple sources. However, there were many instances when I cannot get parts for 15+ years old American or Japanese cars then I had to go to junkyards. I don't have any issues concerning parts *availability* for my '92 300D, it's the fact that half the time the parts I get (OEM stuff, mind you) is defective. I love my old Merc and when I finally get a good part the car feels like it's worth it to fix it but this is getting to be a PITA that I never experienced with any of my Japanese cars. 14 freakin' injectors to get 5 good ones?!?? Are you shure they are new? There is a hugh worldwide market for used polished MB parts. At ebay.de you get MB parts "new" for about 1/3 of the shop price. No warranty of course, but return possibility. I tried a "new" headlamp washer motor, but it was broken internally. Probably the result of a head on accident. |
the case of the half the injectors. My indy mech shares my distrust of
junk parts.
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