"Fishman19" <fishman nineteen at bigfoot dot com> wrote

insurance'. A broker or intermediary specialising in motor trade insurance
will have details. Cover and premium vary depending on how many cars and
their value, drivers, third party risks etc.
Put 'road risks insurance' in Google and you'll get plenty of results.

Alec

I've got many years experience in the motor trade as a professional buyer
and I wouldn't try this myself - too much time, trouble and risk - even for
an expert.

As well as motor trader's insurance, you'll also need trade plates and to
supply warranties on the cars you sell.

If you're just playing at it as a part-time occupation you'll struggle to
make any worthwhile money.

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"Fishman19" <fishman nineteen at bigfoot dot com> wrote:

For every £200 you make, there will be at least £200 you lose.

It's not easy - given that you'll be buying old clunkers worth very
little in the first place. Steve Knight is right - the latest amendments
to Sale of Goods means that anyone selling cars as a business _has_ to
offer some sort of warranty. This is why you can pick up cheap clunkers
that have come in as part-ex, and also why part-ex cars are now
worthless even to independent traders.

Well, you'll have to declare the income to the Inland Revenue - you
_really_ don't want their inspectors turning up on your doorstep.

--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800
VW Golf GL Cabrio (carb broken) - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 33 1.7ie
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

You'll need trade plates too - 99.9% of the cars you buy trade won't be
taxed so can't be driven without them. Your local VRO won't hand those out
to just anyone.

Believe me, there's a world of difference between this and doing it
professionally.

Yes, legality and practicality.

The legality is the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations.

Don't think that by just selling a few cars per year you don't qualify as a
motor trader - under the law, if you sell any car with the intention of
making a profit (even if you fail to do so) you are a motor trader.

That means you must warrant the cars you're selling under the Sale and
Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2003: http://tinyurl.com/y1uc.

This means that if anything goes wrong on a car within SIX months of selling
it, you must prove that the car was okay when you sold it, not the
customer - YOU. These regulations greatly favour the consumer.

I'm guessing that you're not going to be buying newish cars which are
largely fault free, but older cars where faults are more common. To do it
right (and cover yourself from potential claims from buyers) any car should
be inspected by a qualified mechanic prior to being sold on, potential
problems identified and put right - this is known in the trade as
'reconditioning' and even if you buy well could easily cost £250. Just
casting your own untrained eye over it is unlikely to reveal any potential
problems likely to occur within six months.

To encourage buyers (and cover yourself) you should also provide warranties
for the cars you sell. That way, if a fault does occur within six months,
at least the warranty company pays out, not you. However, a condition of
the warranty will be that you have checked all the components covered and
found them to be fault free prior to sale (part of reconditioning). Fail to
do this and the warranty will be void - or at the least your warranty
company will refuse to do business with you (warranty 'burn rates' are
closely monitored to weed out traders who fail to recondition cars
properly). And, of course, a six month warranty is also going to prove
expensive - it could easily be another £200.

Also, on older cars warranties are more limited and unlikely to cover all
the problems that may occur (and which you will still be responsible for).
So you may end up shelling out on faults which occur but aren't covered by
the warranty.

All the above cost / risk to be covered by your £200 per car profit...

If it was as easy as you say, everyone would be doing it - but it isn't
easy. Indeed, the higher level of consumer rights introduced under this
year's Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations are why many
experienced garages are now very wary of selling older cars - there's just
no money in it.

And incidentally, the cost of insurance for a part-time trader with no trade
premises is likely to be substantial.

The only way to go ahead as you suggest is to become the proverbial 'dodgy
dealer', not recondition or warrant cars, cross your fingers and hope you
get no comeback from customers and give them the run-around if they do. All
this, of course, means you're likely to soon find yourself on the wrong side
of the law - something I'd hope you'd be reluctant to do.


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On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:31:31 -0000, "Fishman19" <fishman nineteen at
bigfoot dot com> wrote:

A colleague used to buy and sell cars mainly because he got bored of
them quickly. His regular insurance company got pissed off and told
him that basically they will refuse to renew if he changes it again
and he should get a trade policy.

He kept his existing car for a while and then tried to get a trade
policy. Big problems! Most would not insure an individual and others
had restrictions that weren't acceptable (eg. makes and no sport/GTi
etc.) and a lot had problems because he didn't have business premises.
He eventually got a policy with Newberry but when his "normal" car was
involved in a string of no-fault accidents they did get funny. He
explained that since the first accident and the problems getting it
fixed he was using it personally because it was unsaleable in it's
current condition.

Gareth

--
Gareth
'85 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z (305 V8)
'92 B&W Chevy Caprice 9C1 (350 V8)

"Steve Knight" <steve.kXnigXht1 (AT) bluXeyonXder (DOT) co.uk> wrote

Well after reading all the answers in this thread, I don't know about
the original poster but it would certainly put me off. I think I'd be
rather tempted to takeup knitting.!!

Nowadays most insurance policies have a clause specifically prohibiting any
use in connection with the motor trade.

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Does this include things like brakes, clutch and other "easily" wearable
parts?

Since I got my Ford Fiesta September time I have needed new pads and disks
and a clutch (2 clutch fingers snapped/sheared). I bought it from a friends
daughter so I know there is no waranty but even so what would be the
legalities and realities?

Also to the above I have done a high-milage in this car - MOT 26 July and
about 90.5 K on the clock - I have more than helped throw on about 8.5K on
the clock since then. I think the car had done about 91K when I got it -
maybee less, and the rest from mid september to today...

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 13:12:08 GMT, "Steve Knight"
<steve.kXnigXht1 (AT) bluXeyonXder (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

That's the point - he wasn't in the motor trade, he was in a non-motor
trade full time job and used to change cars frequently. Apparently if
you change cars more than four times in a year they don't like it,
whether you have the intention of making money or not!

Gareth

--
Gareth
'85 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z (305 V8)
'92 B&W Chevy Caprice 9C1 (350 V8)

"Dark Star" <the_dark_one (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote

If you buy privately you have no come back at all as long as the seller
didn't tell any outright lies (try proving it though) or pass on a dodgy
MOT.

If you buy from a trader then the car must be fit for its purpose, and for
all intents and purposes every part must be serviceable unless you know of
any failed parts before you buy (it is bought to your attention - "the
central locking does not work sir"). Obviously, on an old car there will be
more wear and tear than on a new one, but if any major part fails within a
reasonable time of purchase the dealer may be liable. With "consumable"
parts (prake pads, disks and the like) you will have less comeback (they
need replacing time to time on even the most reliable cars), but they MUST
be genuinely serviceable (not require immediate or imminent replacement when
you collect the car).

It is interesting to note that if you buy anything new from a shop/dealer -
a car, hifi, washing machine and the like, the shop/dealer is liable to
rectify any part that fails before it should reasonably be expected to fail
if you can show that the fault was present when you purchased the item.
That is not diffucult in most cases, if the item has been serviced (if and
as required), has not been involved in a physical accident or interfered
with/modified then the fault MUST have been present at purchase.

Most household products like washing machines are deemed to have a life of
no less than 6 years (I think TVs are 10 years). There are no "written in
law" timescales. So DONT worry too much if your dishwasher fails 3 months
outside the warranty - tell the shop to read up on consumer law! If an Item
is near the end of its notional expected life the dealer may get away with
making a contribution towards a replacement rather than make an expensive
repair to an old item - but they are nevertheless liable.

The only downside is that virtually no store managers even know this! If
they dont deliver, write to head office threatening to sue, and if they dont
respond then do sue!

If you dont know what is "a reasonable lifespan" go into the shop and ask
the salesman "If I buy this washing machine, how long can I reasonably
expect it to last". Dont think the salesman is going to say "fifteen months
sir".

In my book extended warranties on household goods do nothing more than make
it a bit easier for you to obtain the service you are entitled to under
consumer law! Even the ones that cover accidental damage often only provide
cover that you already have under your household policy.