good article from Dustin Long

#31

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski (AT) canisius (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:20:37 CST, "Mike Marlow"
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net> wrote in
d87e2$4af181c2$6215adae$16277 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET>:

... the whole whoop-a-lap about him
coming up from 17th to win is hype - that's plate track racing.

It doesn't happen at the ending of every plate track race.

Nope. It happens THROUGHOUT every plate race.

Quote:

That it can happen is part of what makes plate track
racing intriguing to me. It isn't over until it's
over (unlike lots of other races on the schedule,
where someone leads the most laps and wins rather
routinely).

I have no idea what you are trying to say here Marty. Maybe run that by me
a different way.

Quote:

I don't believe that the results are random. Top teams and
top drivers tend to be "lucky" at the end.

Not random, but not a pure reflection of driver skill by any means.
Again -
how many times have you seen Gordon get out and nobody go with him? Plate
racing is all about a partner. Earnhardt could never have made it up
front
without someone pushing or pulling him.

All part of the human interest angle. I wouldn't watch
the races if the drivers were all interchangeable parts.
Their personality is part of the show (for me).

But that does not answer the question/point...

Quote:

It's like the board game, Diplomacy. You have to have
partners to survive to the end of the game, but then you
have to betray your allies in order to win.

Sure - but that all has absolutely nothing to do with Earnhardt moving up 17
positions in 14 laps.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net

#32

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski (AT) canisius (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:20:37 CST, "Mike Marlow"
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net> wrote in
d87e2$4af181c2$6215adae$16277 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET>:

... the whole whoop-a-lap about him
coming up from 17th to win is hype - that's plate track racing.

It doesn't happen at the ending of every plate track race.

That it can happen is part of what makes plate track
racing intriguing to me. It isn't over until it's
over (unlike lots of other races on the schedule,
where someone leads the most laps and wins rather
routinely).

I just thought of this Marty - the rub for me is that Earnhardt gets all
this credit for this since the talking heads started babbling about it.
Well - what about all those other drivers that did exactly the same thing at
exactly the same time. Only one of them could get to the front first, but
what about those guys that pull/pushed Earnhardt to the front? They
advanced as well as he did. Where is that whoop-a-la? what about the
other racing lines that did the same things? Where is the whoop-a-la? It's
plate track racing man - lots of people moved up and lots moved back -
that's the way it goes.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net

#33

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:22:12 CST, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net> wrote in
<a051d$4af26f09$6215ac3b$22380 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET>:

Quote:

... Only one of them could get to the front first, but
what about those guys that pull/pushed Earnhardt to the front? They
advanced as well as he did. Where is that whoop-a-la? what about the
other racing lines that did the same things? Where is the whoop-a-la? It's
plate track racing man - lots of people moved up and lots moved back -
that's the way it goes.

Earnhardt way outperformed luck.

He outperformed the folks who helped him get to
the front.

I find that interesting and admirable.

You and others don't.

<shrug>

Marty
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#34

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 23:55:32 CST, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net> wrote in
<89729$4af268c2$6215ac3b$20182 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET>:

Quote:

I don't think JJ is a three time champ by accident nor
do I think his move from 36th to 6th was just an accident.

Come on Marty - this is plate track racing. Everyone in the pack moved up
like that. And back again. Do you really not believe that Johnson would
have been hung out to dry before it was all over, if the wreck had not
happened?

I don't know.

And, oddly enough, I don't think you know either.

That's what makes the ending of plate track races
so interesting to me.

Quote:

Maybe that's part of the issue - it's not as easy to hang a guy
out to dry as it used to be, and you're giving credit to Johnson for things
that aren't of his doing. Net is the same - johnson got lucky that the
flags came out when they did or he might well have been tens of cars back
from where he was. It happened to everyone else, why not him?

Fortune smiles on those who are prepared to take
advantage of it.

Quote:

And I don't like JJ. I hate it when he wins. But I give
credit where credit seems to be due. Seems to me that
he drove a smart race and reaped the rewards of doing so.

Why? Simply because he wound up where he did? By your logic, he drove a
stupid race the day that Mark Martin drove him off the track on a restart.

It's not stupid to line up where the rules say you have to
line up. Once you're past the start-finish line, then
you get to make your choices about how you get to the
end of the race.

I'm not saying there is no luck involved. I refuse to
accept the proposition that it is nothing but luck
(Jr.'s view).

I enjoy the plate races. I admire the teams and drivers
who seem to have them figured out.

Marty

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#35

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski (AT) canisius (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:01:58 CST, John McCoy <igopogo (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote
in <Xns9CB9B76624EE1pogosupernews (AT) 216 (DOT) 168.3.30>:

When it was time to go, with 15 laps or so to go, he moved all
the way from 33d to 28th. Remove two big wrecks and a bunch
of folk running out of gas, and run the race green to the finish,
and he'd have finished 20th if he was lucky.

I've heard people say that coming up 17 places in four laps
is no big deal in a plate race, that it takes no special
preparation or talent. Now you seem to be saying that it
does. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Huh????? Come on Marty - I think you need to re-read John's comments. They
don't in any way contradict what those of us have said, which argue that the
pack moves the racer. In other words - there's no contradiction here.

Quote:

Remember, M Waltrip started out just behind Johnson w/ 10 to go,
and finished just behind him. No-one would suggest Waltrip (or
his team) are anywhere near Johnson in skill.

MW has only won at plate races.

???? Relevance?

Quote:

MW was giving JJ one heck of a ride in practice when
NASCAR said, "That's what you can't do any more."

???? Relevance?

Quote:

(I will give Knaus credit for a good call on the last gas stop,
tho. That was definately seizing the moment).

Face it, sometimes you're good, and sometimes you're lucky. That
race was one where Johnson was lucky.

I'm not denying some element of luck in winning any
race. I'm not saying that the plate races don't
bring out the luck factor more than other kinds of
races. I do think that some teams and drivers
deserve credit for consistently doing better than
others at the plate races. In other words, I don't
buy Jr.'s sour grapes approach that it's nothing
but luck.

Sour grapes? Or perhaps, he's more right than wrong. So far Marty, you
have not presented anything to argue in favor of your position.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net

#36

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:50:42 CST, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net> wrote in
<de4be$4af26abf$6215ac3b$11499 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET>:

Quote:

I've heard people say that coming up 17 places in four laps
is no big deal in a plate race, that it takes no special
preparation or talent. Now you seem to be saying that it
does. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Huh????? Come on Marty - I think you need to re-read John's comments.

Done.

Quote:

They don't in any way contradict what those of us have said,
which argue that the pack moves the racer. In other
words - there's no contradiction here.

He said he thought that JJ could not have gotten above
20th because he had a slow car; that he was in the back
of the pack not by choice but because he had a slow car.

That suggests to me that having a slow car might keep
one from being accidentally flung to the front by the
pack to win a race or place 6th.

In other words, it's not just random luck.

Quote:

Remember, M Waltrip started out just behind Johnson w/ 10 to go,
and finished just behind him. No-one would suggest Waltrip (or
his team) are anywhere near Johnson in skill.

MW has only won at plate races.

???? Relevance?

To me, it's evidence of some skill at plate racing.

Quote:

MW was giving JJ one heck of a ride in practice when
NASCAR said, "That's what you can't do any more."

???? Relevance?

To me, it's evidence of some skill at plate racing.

Marty
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#37

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski (AT) canisius (DOT) edu> wrote in
news:16idneq8M9mSg2_XnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d (AT) supernews (DOT) com:

Quote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:01:58 CST, John McCoy <igopogo (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com
wrote in <Xns9CB9B76624EE1pogosupernews (AT) 216 (DOT) 168.3.30>:

Johnson
was stuck at the back, not, by all the evidence, because of a
strategic choice, but because that's how good he/his car were.

That's not what I heard. I sure can't testify that I
heard all of the commentary.

The commmentators were pretty consistant on it being a planned
strategy (it is, after all, one that Dale Jarrett had used
himself) up until the point where they thought he needed to
go, and he didn't.

Quote:

When it was time to go, with 15 laps or so to go, he moved all
the way from 33d to 28th. Remove two big wrecks and a bunch
of folk running out of gas, and run the race green to the finish,
and he'd have finished 20th if he was lucky.

I've heard people say that coming up 17 places in four laps
is no big deal in a plate race, that it takes no special
preparation or talent. Now you seem to be saying that it
does. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

The difference is, when Earnhardt did that he had a car that
could do it - he'd led at various times during the day (seven,
if I'm counting the list on racing-reference correctly), and
shown many times that he could fall back and then come back
to the front. Johnson, on the other hand, had spent the entire
day worrying about loosing the draft at the back of the pack
(per the in-car audio).

Quote:

I do think that some teams and drivers
deserve credit for consistently doing better than
others at the plate races.

Johnson's average Talladega finish is something like 20th.
I don't think you can include them in the teams which consistantly
do better than others at plate races.

John

#38

Listpig <listpig (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote in
news:C717B700.77B83%listpig (AT) earthlink (DOT) net:

Quote:

Seems to me that if you argue that this race that you run in time
after time is "nothing but dumb luck" who wins, sooner or later almost
anyone should win it.

That is, actually, the history of Talladega, which has more first
time winners, and one-time winners, than the other tracks.

John

#39

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski (AT) canisius (DOT) edu> wrote in
news:SdadnaHMLd9Z7m_XnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d (AT) supernews (DOT) com:

Quote:

I refuse to
accept the proposition that it is nothing but luck
(Jr.'s view).

On the other hand, Jr has 5 wins in 20 starts at Talladega (plus
3 seconds). So his opinion might carry a bit more weight.

John

#40

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski (AT) canisius (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:22:12 CST, "Mike Marlow"
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net> wrote in
a051d$4af26f09$6215ac3b$22380 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET>:

... Only one of them could get to the front first, but
what about those guys that pull/pushed Earnhardt to the front? They
advanced as well as he did. Where is that whoop-a-la? what about the
other racing lines that did the same things? Where is the whoop-a-la?
It's
plate track racing man - lots of people moved up and lots moved back -
that's the way it goes.

Earnhardt way outperformed luck.

He outperformed the folks who helped him get to
the front.

I find that interesting and admirable.

You and others don't.

shrug

Don't get me wrong - I don't deprive him the credit, nor do I attribute it
all to luck. All I'm saying is that lots of people did the very same thing
he did that day - and every day of plate track racing. He's no spectacular
wonder for coming from 17th to the front in 4 laps. That happens every RP
race.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) windstream (DOT) net