"John McCoy" <igopogo (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote

but freeze the field for yellows.

It will never happen, though.

Carey in Manvel

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Green flag pit stops at plate races, particularly early in the race, are
sometimes nearly full field stops.

Freeze the field? What for?

I sure hope not.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 05:33:32 GMT, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote:


Okay. I guess everyone who wanted to add their comments has had a chance by now.
So...

Why do they close pit road?

Well, Carey said:

I am all for safety. Safety first in my book. If I were Harry Potter I would
put a bubble of protection around everyone at the track. Hate to see people
hurt.

But, I am not buying the safety reason. When a yellow comes out the pit crews
KNOW there are going to be a lot of cars coming down pit road and they can be
more cautious running around out there.

This is not true of a green flag pit stop. The crews have no idea how many cars
are coming and when. A crew can jump out there to service their car and that
car might be the only one on pit road. All of a sudden there is another car
there but the crew is still thinking one. A green flag stop is a much more
dangerous time than a yellow or at least can be.

Carey also said:

What does it matter what order the cars pit? So what if a car 1 lap down pits
before a car on the lead lap. Is there a concern the car 1 lap down will get in
the way of a car on the lead lap?

Nah, that can't be because as soon as they are all off of pit road NASCAR puts
the cars a lap or more down right in the way of all the lead lap cars by putting
them right next to the cars on the lead lap by putting them in the left lane. So
if you are in the second position (for example) on the lead lap, you end up in
the 4th position on the restart. The 1st car on the lap down is in the "pole"
position. The 1st car on the lead lap is in the 2nd position. The 2nd car one
lap down is in the 3rd position, etc. etc. etc. Sounds like the cars 1 or more
laps down are REALLY in the way of the lead lap cars.

So if it is okay for the cars down a lap or more to get into the way of the cars
on the lead lap during a restart, why does it matter if they are in the way in
the pits?

Why not just restart the race with the cars in the exact order they were when
the yellow came out? Cars on the lead lap with the cars down a lap behind and
the cars down 2 laps behind them, etc. etc. etc. Isn't that why the field is
"*frozen*" when the yellow comes out? And what is this "lucky dog" thingie? Oh
you lucky dog. Now you get to go up front and get in the way of someone on the
lead lap. Bologna! Race your way back up in front of those cars. That is why
we are here; to watch a RACE.


SG says they close the pits ...:



With todays technology and cameras NASCAR *knows* exactly were each car is
relative to another car. So, I don't buy that arguement any more either.

SG also says:


How do you gain an advantage? When the yellow comes out the field is "*frozen*".


SG also said:

Well lets take away ALL non racing advantages. I came to see a race. Races are
not held on pit road because one driver decides to take 2 tires instead of 4.
That is not a race. It makes for *great* pit crew competitions but not a race.

The field is frozen when the yellow comes out and the race should restart with
the cars in that exact order. Adjusting for cars so damaged they can't get back
out onto the track by the time the race is ready to restart of course.

Why bother to freeze a field if you are going to let drivers unfreeze the field
by changing positions based on how many tires they took?


And then John said:


There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that what John says is true (not to
question the truthfulness of the other posters). I can not imagine how NASCAR
kept track of everything and everyone before our modern-day electronics and
cameras. It must have been a nightmare.


But John goes on to say:

Not necessary any longer what with the electronics and cameras.


John goes on:

Oh isn't *that* great for safety!?!?!


John again:


You bet that speed down pit road is a problem! I can hardly believe that kind of
speed was *ever* allowed. Sometimes humans just can't see the horrible
consequences that can occure. ??

Speaking of speed limits; how about not closing pit road, (cars come in as soon
as they reach pit road a few at a time) but as soon as the yellow comes out they
immediately have to drop their speed to say 15 or 25 MPH on the track or
whatever would be safe for the emergency crews on the track and continue around
the track until they reach pit road when they can pit? Why does it matter?
Either they do it that way or they do it bunched up behind a pace car but one
way or another they are going around again if they have passed pit road when the
yellow comes out.
And on some short tracks they may pass pit road 2 or more times behind the pace
car while everyone lines up.

So. The yellow comes out. (Pit road is not closed) The field is frozen. Cars
come in to pit road as they approach it. No "racing" on pit road. No 43 cars
coming down pit road all at the same time. All cars are lined up in the exact
order the field was in when the yellow came out. The restart happens as if there
was no yellow. No? Problems?

I can see only one reason to close pit road.

But let's start with the question: Why does a driver drive down pit road?

1. Well, he is forming the line up before the race so the fans can see his car
*before* it is all smashed up. :-) I think they call that opening ceremonies.

2. After the race they seem to line up again on pit road. I guess so the fans
can see their smashed up cars.

3. During a green flag pit stop.

4. And --- during a caution when the car(s) that caused the caution probably
*need* to go down pit road.

But lets just say a guy has a flat. No other cars involved. No other damage. No
debris on the track. Just a flat. The flat happens in turn 3. Caution comes
out. NASCAR closes pit road for safety reasons. Does NASCAR *really* think this
guy is going to drive a mile--mile and a half--two miles--or two and a half
miles or more on a flat waiting for pit road to open as the tire begins to shred
and tear up his car? Does NASCAR really think it is safer for a car with a flat
(and is therefore less controlable) to come down pit road with 20, 30 or 40
other cars? Wouldn't it be safer for that car to come down pit road alone or
with just a few cars?

Nope. NASCAR closes pit road for one reason only. They have this unholy need to
send cars to the rear of the pack. NASCAR has this need to *control* who has a
chance at winning the race. POWER! That is what NASCAR does best. They got that
maneuver down pat.

And the sad thing is that this poor driver may get a flat *because* NASCAR
didn't do their job by cautioning for debris and removing it *before* someone
hit it.

NASCAR: Well---we weren't doing our job by watching out for debris on the track
so you hit something and got a flat. We are going to reward you by screwing you
even further by closing pit road and sending you to the back of the line. OR,
(see, we are nice. we will offer you an option) you can stay out until we
decide to open pit road and destroy your car with the shredding tire.

My conclusion; given the reasons presented there is no reason to close pit road
other than to punish a driver.
--
Paul of El Cajon

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

The crews may be cautious, but sometimes the drivers arent. It isn't
unusual for crew members to get run over. It seems to me in happens more
now than before the speed limits.
Yes, but in general, the entire field does not pit under green.
Under the current rules, the first time around the track under yellow, with
the pits open, only the lead lap cars can pit. This is supposed to limit
the amount of cars on pit road at a time.
See the above.
In open wheel (IRL) the cars restart single file, with lapped cars mixed in
with the lead lap. Much like your way. The lucky dog thingy came about
when NASCAR stopped racing to the yellow flag. Then, a driver could get a
lap back by passing the leader before he got to the start finish line. With
that take away, they initiated the lucky dog.

Here is my gripe about not racing to the yellow. Instead of scoring the
last completed lap, they go to scoring loops in the track and try and freeze
the postions that way, until pit stops are made. In almost every other
sanctioning body, they go back to the last completed lap. It makes sense,
since the start/finish line is where the race is scored. I just don't get
the scoring loops deal.
curiosity.

Carey in Portland

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:44:20 GMT, "Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote:


That is precisely my point. What is better, a bunch of cars coming down pit
road all at the same time causing greater risk to the pit crew or a smaller
amount of cars coming down pit road as they reach the pit entry? Seems like
NASCAR wants them all bunched up so up to 43 cars can all come down pit road at
the same time putting the pit crews at even greater risk.


And in the early stages of the race 40, 38, 35 cars jambing down pit road is
safe? In the end stages of a race you have more cars out of the race and fewer
cars 1 or more laps down. I would think it is safer when the cars 1 or more
laps down get to come in, there are fewer of them usually.



No, no, not like my way. Lead lap first side by side, then 1 lap down, side by
side, then two laps down, etc.


I have to admit that I may not understand how this lucky dog thing works but I
do understand racing the leader across the S/F during a yellow is dangerous and
not good.


Well you and I differ there. I am for the loops; especially on a big track.
It would be awful for a driver to pass 3 or 4 cars after he crossed the S/F only
to be told he had to go back to the point before he passed them. All that work
for nothing. No, that is too much like NASCAR's 'go to the end of the line" for
me. Whatever progress you made after crossing the line you earned and should
keep.



Only problem is, as Mom use to say, curiosity killed the cat. :-)
--
Paul of El Cajon

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Impose a 2 lap penalty for pitting during a caution.
--
-
--
-v-
solamente ocho !

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

Whooops! Guess I wasn't real prompt on this.

<big snip>

Mebbe some historical perspective contrasted to the present-day timing loops would
be of interest, Paul.

Back in the day, each entrant in a NASCAR race had a designated Official Scorer in
the (ahem) Scoring Tower. Mounted on the back of the Flag Stand (still) is a
clock (digital today) that faces the Scorers in the Tower. The Scorers were to
note down the time for their respective entrant *every* time the car passed the
S/F line. If/when a Caution Flag flew, the Scorers were to be able to report the
*last* time noted for their entrant if there was a dispute about the relative
positions of two or more cars on the preceding scored lap. Times were logged for
both on-track and on-pit road each time the car passed S/F...Green or Yellow flag
conditions. Frequently, while using a scanner at the track, you'll hear teams
asking to be moved ahead of another car...if you switch to the Tower freq, you
often hear the replies to such requests.
huge...both in time wasted and in elevated tempers! And I'm sure it was a bigger
mess prior to radios connecting the Tower, Scorers, Flagman, Pit Officials, etc.

Closing Pit Road, (and collecting the field behind the Pace Car) along with the
safety angle, was meant to allow quicker, more accurate, resolution of disputes
and resuming the race sooner. The addition of radio comms and putting an Official
on Pit Road in nearly every stall was also intended to help.

With the advent of using electronic Scoring Loops at multiple locations around the
tracks, NASCAR hoped to be able to 'slice the pie' more finely than the last
"time" logged when passing the clock on the Flag Stand.

Has it been successful?? Many fans feel that races *don't* resume any more
promptly and I'm sure some teams still think there are errors.

YMMV.

--
Tom in Bristol




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On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:21:12 -0500, "Tom" <tomdspam88 (AT) bvunet (DOT) net> wrote:



I thank you Tom for the history lesson. That is kind of what I though caused
the closing of pit road but I didn't know each car has his own scorer. That
must have been a nightmare to say the least.

However, those days are gone. We have modern technology that keeps track of the
cars and there is only one reason to close pit road; NASCAR POWER; because I
said so, and I am NASCAR.
--
Paul of El Cajon

Paul wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement that each team supply a
scorer still exists in Cup racing. The regional series (Grand National
Division) still operate that way, even with a chief scorer tracking
every car and a transponder system.

At the Toyota NASCAR All-Star Showdown last November, NASCAR decided it
didn't need to have the team-provided scorers (this was not brought to
the teams till after everyone, including said scorers, arrived at great
time-off and airfare/hotel costs) arrived at the track to start
practice. The race, perhaps directly related to the lack of back-up
scoring to the transponder system, turned into a fiasco.

"-v-" <vxmNOvxSPA-3M*@altara.invalid> wrote


Carey in Portland