Big track v small track

#31

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:47:16 -0500, "Alan J. Claffie" <aclaffie (AT) rocketmail (DOT) com>
wrote:

Quote:

Paul wrote:

I thank you Tom for the history lesson. That is kind of what I though caused
the closing of pit road but I didn't know each car has his own scorer. That
must have been a nightmare to say the least.

However, those days are gone. We have modern technology that keeps track of the
cars and there is only one reason to close pit road; NASCAR POWER; because I
said so, and I am NASCAR.

I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement that each team supply a
scorer still exists in Cup racing. The regional series (Grand National
Division) still operate that way, even with a chief scorer tracking
every car and a transponder system.

At the Toyota NASCAR All-Star Showdown last November, NASCAR decided it
didn't need to have the team-provided scorers (this was not brought to
the teams till after everyone, including said scorers, arrived at great
time-off and airfare/hotel costs) arrived at the track to start
practice. The race, perhaps directly related to the lack of back-up
scoring to the transponder system, turned into a fiasco.

GADS! That is terrible for the drivers. You would think people would *know*
there *has* to be a back-up system of some sort.

Did they ever get it straightened out, or was the race a total bust?
--
Paul of El Cajon

#32

Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote in
news:51bos19fkurm0k3l8ebba82q29h0ddlp7e (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

Quote:

Okay. I guess everyone who wanted to add their comments has had a
chance by now. So...

Wow. You've been putting some serious thinking & typing into this
one....I'm not going to try & comment on everything.

Quote:

Why not just restart the race with the cars in the exact order they
were when the yellow came out?

That's the way it's done in most lower-level racing. Yellow comes
out, everyone lines up in the order they were at the start of the
lap, except for whoever (in the starters opinion) caused the yellow
to come out, who gets sent to the back. It's not a popular idea
for Cup, because it takes the pit crews out of the picture, and
many people like the team aspect of the pit crews competing, and
a good crew gaining their driver a position or two.

Quote:

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that what John says is true
(not to question the truthfulness of the other posters).

I thank you for the compliment :-)

Quote:

But John goes on to say:

To solve that problem, they decreed that everyone had to
line up behind the pace car, so the scorers could be certain
about the field order & who was on what lap, before anyone
pitted.

Not necessary any longer what with the electronics and cameras.

True. However, if you allowed immediate pitting when the yellow
comes out, it would still be possible to gain an advantage, since
positions aren't frozen in the pits.

Quote:

Speaking of speed limits; how about not closing pit road, (cars come
in as soon as they reach pit road a few at a time) but as soon as the
yellow comes out they immediately have to drop their speed to say 15
or 25 MPH on the track or whatever would be safe for the emergency
crews on the track and continue around the track until they reach pit
road when they can pit?

They tried that at Indy for a few years in the 60's. Everyone, and
I mean everyone, cheated on it...they'd dawdle down the front, but
as soon as they got to the backstretch it was full bore, until they
caught up to the car ahead. You could probably enforce that now,
but only at the cost of an immense amount of pissing & moaning
from guys caught going too fast.

Quote:

But lets just say a guy has a flat. No other cars involved. No other
damage. No debris on the track. Just a flat. The flat happens in turn
3. Caution comes out. NASCAR closes pit road for safety reasons.
Does NASCAR *really* think this guy is going to drive a mile--mile and
a half--two miles--or two and a half miles or more on a flat waiting
for pit road to open as the tire begins to shred and tear up his car?

NASCAR doesn't - a car with a flat can pit (assuming it's safe to
enter pit road; NASCAR will tell the teams by radio if there's an
ambulance or fire truck in pit road) and accept the end of the
line penalty. For reasons unknown, drivers choose to limp around
and chance loosing a fender.

Quote:

My conclusion; given the reasons presented there is no reason to close
pit road other than to punish a driver.

They probably needed punishing anyway. Builds character.

John

#33

Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote in
news:3r2ps1d659s91ka9bb1ll4lum9db62pnp0 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

Quote:

I do understand racing the leader across the S/F during a
yellow is dangerous and not good.

Why? They did it that way for decades without any significant
problems.

John

(figures that question should be good to extend the thread
another 20 or 30 posts, it usually sparks a heated arguement.)

#34

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:51:01 -0000, John McCoy <igopogo (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote:

Quote:

Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote in
news:3r2ps1d659s91ka9bb1ll4lum9db62pnp0 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

I do understand racing the leader across the S/F during a
yellow is dangerous and not good.

Why? They did it that way for decades without any significant
problems.

John

(figures that question should be good to extend the thread
another 20 or 30 posts, it usually sparks a heated arguement.)

Well -- for one thing it is against the rules. The caution is out and it is
time to take your foot off of the gas not press it to the floor.

Second it is not really racing because the leader has his foot off the gas and
is slowing down to obey the rules. Where is the sport in you passing him?
--
Paul of El Cajon

#35

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:47:46 -0000, John McCoy <igopogo (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote:

Quote:

Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote in
news:51bos19fkurm0k3l8ebba82q29h0ddlp7e (AT) 4ax (DOT) com:

Why not just restart the race with the cars in the exact order they
were when the yellow came out?

That's the way it's done in most lower-level racing. Yellow comes
out, everyone lines up in the order they were at the start of the
lap, except for whoever (in the starters opinion) caused the yellow
to come out, who gets sent to the back.

Nope. Not buying that one. It may not be the fault of any driver. And if a
driver did something stupid and caused himself to wreck, he has to live with the
wrecked car and probably being laps down while they fix it or he may be out of
the race. Nobody goes to the back becuse of a Goodyear tire or because NASCAR
didn't do their job and left debris on the track which the driver hit to get the
flat. Nope. No back to the rear.

Quote:

It's not a popular idea for Cup, because it takes the pit crews out of the
picture, and many people like the team aspect of the pit crews competing,
and a good crew gaining their driver a position or two.

Well, like I said, I love to watch the pit crews in competition but that is not
racing. No advantage in the pits because you took 2 tires and I took 4. You
want to beat me? Race me. That is what we are here for.

Quote:

But John goes on to say:

To solve that problem, they decreed that everyone had to
line up behind the pace car, so the scorers could be certain
about the field order & who was on what lap, before anyone
pitted.

Not necessary any longer what with the electronics and cameras.

True. However, if you allowed immediate pitting when the yellow
comes out, it would still be possible to gain an advantage, since
positions aren't frozen in the pits.

But they would be when you got back out onto the track to line up for restart,
right where they were when the yellow came out.

And, thinking of it, I guess the pit crews could put on a show to see who can
get their car out onto the track fastest. But once on the track frozen
positions would be resumed.

Quote:

Speaking of speed limits; how about not closing pit road, (cars come
in as soon as they reach pit road a few at a time) but as soon as the
yellow comes out they immediately have to drop their speed to say 15
or 25 MPH on the track or whatever would be safe for the emergency
crews on the track and continue around the track until they reach pit
road when they can pit?

They tried that at Indy for a few years in the 60's. Everyone, and
I mean everyone, cheated on it...they'd dawdle down the front, but
as soon as they got to the backstretch it was full bore, until they
caught up to the car ahead. You could probably enforce that now,
but only at the cost of an immense amount of pissing & moaning
from guys caught going too fast.

I don't understand. Why cheat? You are not going to gain anything. The field
is frozen when the yellow came out.

However, if, for some reason you want to exceed the speed limit, okay, it will
cost you a $1000 bucks to speed. You guys are always telling me the drivers
make so much money they don't care about money anyway. $1000 bucks don't stop
it? Okay, $2000, or $3000.... The safety of the emergency crews is the most
important thing.

Quote:

But lets just say a guy has a flat. No other cars involved. No other
damage. No debris on the track. Just a flat. The flat happens in turn
3. Caution comes out. NASCAR closes pit road for safety reasons.
Does NASCAR *really* think this guy is going to drive a mile--mile and
a half--two miles--or two and a half miles or more on a flat waiting
for pit road to open as the tire begins to shred and tear up his car?

NASCAR doesn't - a car with a flat can pit (assuming it's safe to
enter pit road; NASCAR will tell the teams by radio if there's an
ambulance or fire truck in pit road) and accept the end of the
line penalty. For reasons unknown, drivers choose to limp around
and chance loosing a fender.

But under ABAR rules a driver is not going to be punished by going to the end of
the line because he had a flat or brushed up against the wall or something. The
yellow is out, he needs to pit, and when he goes back out onto the track he is
in the same position he was in when the yellow came out. If a driver has a flat
(for example) in turn 4 and can not make it safely to the pits, then, too bad,
so sad, drive all the way around.

Quote:

My conclusion; given the reasons presented there is no reason to close
pit road other than to punish a driver.

They probably needed punishing anyway. Builds character.

GOSH! I am glad I am not your son! :-)
--
Paul of El Cajon

#36

Paul wrote:

Quote:

Why do they close pit road?

So the race cars won't drive down it?

#37

Quote:

Paul wrote:

Why do they close pit road?

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:57:01 GMT, "Hobbes" <Hobbes (AT) anon (DOT) penet.fi> wrote:

Quote:

So the race cars won't drive down it?

They do anyway, so I guess your theory doesn't work. :-)
--
Paul of El Cajon

#38

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

Quote:

Nope. Not buying that one. It may not be the fault of any driver. And if
a
driver did something stupid and caused himself to wreck, he has to live
with the
wrecked car and probably being laps down while they fix it or he may be
out of
the race. Nobody goes to the back becuse of a Goodyear tire or because
NASCAR
didn't do their job and left debris on the track which the driver hit to
get the
flat. Nope. No back to the rear.

Don't matter - that's racin'.

Quote:

Well, like I said, I love to watch the pit crews in competition but that
is not
racing. No advantage in the pits because you took 2 tires and I took 4.
You
want to beat me? Race me. That is what we are here for.

That's racin' too. The work in the pits is and always has been a part of
racin'. We have to work on your tastes, not what goes on in the pits.
Start by saying to yourself "the pits are part of racin', the pits are part
of racin', the pits are part of racin'...". Again.

Quote:

But they would be when you got back out onto the track to line up for
restart,
right where they were when the yellow came out.

And, thinking of it, I guess the pit crews could put on a show to see who
can
get their car out onto the track fastest. But once on the track frozen
positions would be resumed.

It's not about a show. It's about a part of the race. (Though, don't
suggest that to NASCAR - to them it's all "the show")

Quote:

However, if, for some reason you want to exceed the speed limit, okay, it
will
cost you a $1000 bucks to speed. You guys are always telling me the
drivers
make so much money they don't care about money anyway. $1000 bucks don't
stop
it? Okay, $2000, or $3000.... The safety of the emergency crews is the
most
important thing.

This is the ground that great discussions have been built upon. So... take
a minute to do some research - as much research as you feel you need, and
find the incidents of safety crews or competitors being hurt or killed, such
that your statement "the safety of the emergency crews is the most important
thing" has any relevance. Sorry Paul, but this one falls into the category
of Hillary Clinton's "think of the children".

Quote:

NASCAR doesn't - a car with a flat can pit (assuming it's safe to
enter pit road; NASCAR will tell the teams by radio if there's an
ambulance or fire truck in pit road) and accept the end of the
line penalty. For reasons unknown, drivers choose to limp around
and chance loosing a fender.

But under ABAR rules a driver is not going to be punished by going to the
end of
the line because he had a flat or brushed up against the wall or
something. The
yellow is out, he needs to pit, and when he goes back out onto the track
he is
in the same position he was in when the yellow came out. If a driver has a
flat
(for example) in turn 4 and can not make it safely to the pits, then, too
bad,
so sad, drive all the way around.

Sissy rules. Boo Hiss. Paul - at some point you need to quit trying to
change everything you don't understand and accept some of what's out there.
Just because you don't understand it, or even don't like it does not mean
you have a better plan. Lord knows there's enough that can be subjected to
a better plan without changing everything just because you don't like the
sense of fairness. It's a big boy's game and there's winners and there's
losers. It's just the way it is. Everything that happens on the track is
part of racing. Sometimes it hurts and sometimes it works to your
advantage, but it's not about creating a lilly white environment. It
racing. Stuff happens.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net

#39

"Hobbes" <Hobbes (AT) anon (DOT) penet.fi> wrote

Quote:

Paul wrote:
Why do they close pit road?

So the race cars won't drive down it?

PERFECT!!!!!

Scott - you owe me a new freakin' keyboard.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net

#40

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:55:03 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net>
wrote:

Quote:

This is the ground that great discussions have been built upon. So... take
a minute to do some research - as much research as you feel you need, and
find the incidents of safety crews or competitors being hurt or killed, such
that your statement "the safety of the emergency crews is the most important
thing" has any relevance. Sorry Paul, but this one falls into the category
of Hillary Clinton's "think of the children".

*WELL*! If you are going to be *that* insulting comparing me to *that* woman...
:-)

Quote:

Sissy rules. Boo Hiss. Paul - at some point you need to quit trying to
change everything you don't understand and accept some of what's out there.

That is absolutely amazing!!! Just tonight I was thinking, "I wonder how long
it is going to be before someone tells me to stop trying to change things and
buzz off. LOL It took about two hours.

By the by, do you have ESP?
--
Paul of El Cajon