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Bow Tie dominance...
Nascar NASCAR and other professional stock car racing (rec.autos.sport.nascar)
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#21
 
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Re: Bow Tie dominance... -
04-16-2007
, 11:02 PM
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On the pre-race show, DW and company talked about when Chevy would introduce their new engine, I beleive they said the new engine was not due yet. DW said that Chevy introduced the new engine at Texas because of dyno results. One of the other announcers said talk was the new engines produced about 15 to 20 more hoursepower. I think the estimate of 15 to 20 horses is a bit much, but the new engine had a pretty good outing. |
been for that damned wall (a couple of times...), he'd have taken that old
SB2 right on into Victory Lane. That does not at all say anything powerful
about the new motor.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net
#22
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On Apr 16, 10:17 pm, "JerseyMike" <clamdigger... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: "Daniel" <sabot12... (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1176773892.663760.126960 (AT) d57g2000hsg (DOT) googlegroups.com... On Apr 16, 7:11 pm, "JerseyMike" <clamdigger... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: "Daniel" <sabot12... (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1176755348.873974.184060 (AT) y5g2000hsa (DOT) googlegroups.com... On Apr 16, 3:32 pm, "JerseyMike" <clamdigger... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: "armpit" <armarmpit... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:ap-dnVYLi7u2ML7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com... "Mike Marlow" <mmar... (AT) alltel (DOT) net> wrote in message news:4ef57$4623aab2$4b58a657$31162 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET... "armpit" <armarmpit... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:2pidnUTDLP7eAr7bnZ2dnUVZ_v-tnZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com... "JerseyMike" <clamdigger... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:PuMUh.49921$VU4.9705 (AT) bgtnsc05-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net... after yet another dominating performance by the bowtie brigade...how much longer will it take for Na$car to step in like they did in the truck series and mandate a change unless the few laps the blue deuce led yesterday counts as parity. if it was Toyota teams dominating these races,would it then be a time for a change? mike......... All the Chevy fans will tell you its because most of the top teams are Chevy teams. That's a fat load of crap. Mark Martin is having a great season running for a *second tier* Chevy team. Probably a better start than he ever had at Roush. Imagine how big of a point lead Matt Kenseth would have now if he were driving a Chevy. And as if Chevy weren't dominating enough, Nascar lets them have a new engine design on top of it all. Sheesh. Ok... so what is Chevy's advantage? HP? Nope. How do you know? Peak HP ain't everything. It's all about the area under the curve, and NASCAR doesn't release that data when they dyno the engines. Aero? Nope. Again, how do you know? They don't use all the same templates. The CoT will finally remove that bonus, but until they go to a common engine, Chevy will always have a gifted advantage. They've had it for years & years. so are you a supporter of the COT for the common template? i support the safety issues they are trying to engage, but not the templates. the only advantage that Chevy has is that they actually try and manufacter a car that can be competitive in CUP. So you can go down to your local Chevy dealership and buy an exact copy of a Nextel Cup car? Do the Chevy race teams buy their race cars directly from Chevrolet? Wow, that's news. For years we have been told that the teams built these cars by hand, and that the engines were about the only thing the manufacturer had actually manufactured. How did you get the memo that everyone else didn't? Face it, NASCRAP has tilted the field in favor of Chevy, and have done so for decades. Hell, they went so far as to make the Dodge teams re- engineer their engines to a Chevy type design. well, the initial street version Monte was designed around the Cup rules. that way when the teams go the shop and start adding on, the car makes a better race car. Sure it was. That's why it has RWD and a 5.7 Carbureted, pushrod V-8. Try again. the body style was initially designed around the Cup rules. The Chevrolet Monte Carlo has NOTHING to do with the Cup car, aside from decals. |
the nose, hood, rear deck, windhield and roof line are just some i can think
of, but when GM brough tthe Monte back its street version was designed to
optimize the rules package in place for the bodies.
if that's been changed it's news to me, but i'll look around for what is
required for the body templates.
mike........
#23
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"armpit" <armarmpitpit (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news  6KdnSY0o9nltLnbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com...If Kenseth drove a Chevy, none of the other Chevies would ever win. Don't lose sight of the basis for comparison. Mark Martin moves from a top Ford team to a SECOND TIER CHEVY and consistently finishes towards the front. So... back to a question that I recently asked. Ford makes more HP than Chevy. Aero is equal across all makes. So you tell me - what's the deal with drivers like Martin? Maybe he didn't have the incentive to push for Jack? Maybe now, with a new team - not a new manufacturer, he feels re-invigorated? Let's face it - Martin is a better driver than he has presented himself to be for over five years now. I still don't believe he has the fire in his gut to be a champion, but he might just have a new excitement for the sport. An excitement that is fueled by something within the team and not related to manufacturer. What hope does Ford or Dodge have if their very best teams can barely compete with the NASCAR/Chevy leftovers? Well, let's see. What is Yates these days? I think Roush has problems under the covers that affect how much his drivers/teams really want to work for him. Who else is there in the Ford camp? Dodge... geeze, who in the hell even wants to drive a Dodge? Kurt saw an opportunity to be more prominent than he was at Roush. Evernaham teams... pray for them. Kasey is only good for google eyed girly commercials. I agree - they can't compete with Chevy's leftovers, but don't look at the manufacturers, look at the owner/teams. Nascar's not about parity. Nascar's about Bowties and making sure they win. Ever see Nascar throw a debris caution for Matt Kenseth? Mark Martin? Biffle? Edwards? Any Ford driver? Any Dodge driver? I've seen plenty of them thrown for Junior & Gordon. Stewart too. Parity my ass. Oh, bull. It would simply be too obvious to give anything - anything at all to a Ford or Dodge team. I do agree that some driver/teams get favored treatment, but not based on the bow tie. Those days are gone in my opinion. I think Ford paid its penance and I think NASCAR wants Dodge and Toyota to be successful in order to keep the "excitement" up. Maybe moreso Toyota these days than Dodge, but I think they want to see the field rounded out for the entertainment value. Mike, |
While I'll admit I'm pretty biased against Chevy, and that taints my views,
I think you'd have to admit that your feelings toward Chevy taint your views
the other direction. Seriously look at the rules changes over the years
that have been allowed for Chevy vs what's been allowed for other
manufacturers. As far as better teams/drivers, heck, I root for PE, so I
certainly can't say that Hendrick, Childress and Gibbs aren't better teams
than PE is right now. But again I go back to the "favors" that have been
given to Chevy.
One big one is when the new Monte was first introduced. Where did the "beer
can" headlight area come from? Why were they allowed to do it at all?
Because it gave them a distinct aero advantage, that's why. I mean come on,
look at the stock Monte headlights and look at the Cup Monte headlights.
Not even close. At least when the Intrepid was on the track, the nose
pretty much followed the stock shape. Same with the Taurus and now the
Fusion. I will say that Dodge's new Charger nose pulls farther away from
the "stock" appearance than the Intrepid did.
Then look at what Nascar did to Dodge last year. Dodge introduced a new
nose partway through the year the year before. Nascar said NO changes mid
year. Use it next year. They approved it, knowing full well Dodge had done
it's testing based on the current spoiler rules... then as soon as it was
approved, changed the spoiler rules which effectively negated all the work
Dodge had done. Again Dodge was told, NO changes mid year, you submitted a
nose, live with it. But um... Chevy gets to introduce a new motor after the
start of the year??? Nah... no bias toward GM at all, is there? Sheesh...
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-- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net |
#24
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"armpit" <armarmpitpit (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news 6KdnSY0o9nltLnbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com...If Kenseth drove a Chevy, none of the other Chevies would ever win. Don't lose sight of the basis for comparison. Mark Martin moves from a top Ford team to a SECOND TIER CHEVY and consistently finishes towards the front. So... back to a question that I recently asked. Ford makes more HP than Chevy. |
under the HP curve, and that data isn't made public.
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Aero is equal across all makes. |
templates still aren't the same for all manufacturers.
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So you tell me - what's the deal with drivers like Martin? Maybe he didn't have the incentive to push for Jack? Maybe now, with a new team - not a new manufacturer, he feels re-invigorated? Let's face it - Martin is a better driver than he has presented himself to be for over five years now. I still don't believe he has the fire in his gut to be a champion, but he might just have a new excitement for the sport. An excitement that is fueled by something within the team and not related to manufacturer. |
cranking out top 5's with a new team (new to him) right off the bat *must*
be totally due to his attitude.
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| What hope does Ford or Dodge have if their very best teams can barely compete with the NASCAR/Chevy leftovers? Well, let's see. What is Yates these days? I think Roush has problems under the covers that affect how much his drivers/teams really want to work for him. |
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Who else is there in the Ford camp? Dodge... geeze, who in the hell even wants to drive a Dodge? Kurt saw an opportunity to be more prominent than he was at Roush. Evernaham teams... pray for them. Kasey is only good for google eyed girly commercials. I agree - they can't compete with Chevy's leftovers, but don't look at the manufacturers, look at the owner/teams. |
Why would I look at owners & teams when there is a clear-cut,
across-the-board advantage?
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| Nascar's not about parity. Nascar's about Bowties and making sure they win. Ever see Nascar throw a debris caution for Matt Kenseth? Mark Martin? Biffle? Edwards? Any Ford driver? Any Dodge driver? I've seen plenty of them thrown for Junior & Gordon. Stewart too. Parity my ass. Oh, bull. It would simply be too obvious to give anything - anything at all to a Ford or Dodge team. I do agree that some driver/teams get favored treatment, but not based on the bow tie. |
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Those days are gone in my opinion. I think Ford paid its penance |
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and I think NASCAR wants Dodge and Toyota to be successful in order to keep the "excitement" up. Maybe moreso Toyota these days than Dodge, but I think they want to see the field rounded out for the entertainment value. |
#25
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"Frank from Deeeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote in message news:L-KdncdQ0pFktLnbnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... On the pre-race show, DW and company talked about when Chevy would introduce their new engine, I beleive they said the new engine was not due yet. DW said that Chevy introduced the new engine at Texas because of dyno results. One of the other announcers said talk was the new engines produced about 15 to 20 more hoursepower. I think the estimate of 15 to 20 horses is a bit much, but the new engine had a pretty good outing. Depends on how you look at it Frank. Gordon ran the old SB2. If it had not been for that damned wall (a couple of times...), he'd have taken that old SB2 right on into Victory Lane. That does not at all say anything powerful about the new motor. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net |
horspower. If true, all of the new Chevy engines would have beat out the
rest of the field. At the Cup level, 3 -5 additional horsepower is a large
increase.
#26
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"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow (AT) alltel (DOT) net> wrote in message news:8a49a$46244730$4b58a657$5444 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET... So... back to a question that I recently asked. Ford makes more HP than Chevy. Peak HP maybe. Like I responded to your question, it's all about the area under the HP curve, and that data isn't made public. |
has the better torque/HP capabiity, I'd say it's Ford. Haven't you noticed
that no one can ever seem to catch Kenseth or Edwards if they get out front?
How about the way they get to the front.
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Aero is equal across all makes. Says who? Only the CoT guarantees a level playing field. The current templates still aren't the same for all manufacturers. |
were any significant aero differences you can bet you'd be hearing the
drivers complain. When was the last time you saw one brand suffer an aero
disadvantage compared to another?
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So you tell me - what's the deal with drivers like Martin? Maybe he didn't have the incentive to push for Jack? Maybe now, with a new team - not a new manufacturer, he feels re-invigorated? Let's face it - Martin is a better driver than he has presented himself to be for over five years now. I still don't believe he has the fire in his gut to be a champion, but he might just have a new excitement for the sport. An excitement that is fueled by something within the team and not related to manufacturer. Um, yeah. I'm sure the car has nothing to do with it. The reason Martin is cranking out top 5's with a new team (new to him) right off the bat *must* be totally due to his attitude. |
I'm guessing.
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Well, let's see. What is Yates these days? I think Roush has problems under the covers that affect how much his drivers/teams really want to work for him. Do tell. What are these problems? |
have come alive after leaving Roush, and not just because he was in a better
car. Remember, it was quite a while before he did anything in that Cingular
Chevy, but his attitude was remarkably different. I think I see the same
thing in Martin. Busch left to go drive a Dodge. He was a Champion with
that Ford team, but he left it all behind. I don't think life is all that
happy at Jack's house.
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Who else is there in the Ford camp? Dodge... geeze, who in the hell even wants to drive a Dodge? Kurt saw an opportunity to be more prominent than he was at Roush. Evernaham teams... pray for them. Kasey is only good for google eyed girly commercials. I agree - they can't compete with Chevy's leftovers, but don't look at the manufacturers, look at the owner/teams. Why would I look at owners & teams when there is a clear-cut, across-the-board advantage? |
field.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net
#27
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Mike, While I'll admit I'm pretty biased against Chevy, and that taints my views, I think you'd have to admit that your feelings toward Chevy taint your views the other direction. Seriously look at the rules changes over the years that have been allowed for Chevy vs what's been allowed for other manufacturers. As far as better teams/drivers, heck, I root for PE, so I certainly can't say that Hendrick, Childress and Gibbs aren't better teams than PE is right now. But again I go back to the "favors" that have been given to Chevy. |
of what makes me the great guy that I am...
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net
#28
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"armpit" <armarmpitpit (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:iKydnUsc6u9vVbnbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com... "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow (AT) alltel (DOT) net> wrote in message news:8a49a$46244730$4b58a657$5444 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET... So... back to a question that I recently asked. Ford makes more HP than Chevy. Peak HP maybe. Like I responded to your question, it's all about the area under the HP curve, and that data isn't made public. Sure it's about torque, but if there's any reason to believe that one brand has the better torque/HP capabiity, I'd say it's Ford. Haven't you noticed that no one can ever seem to catch Kenseth or Edwards if they get out front? How about the way they get to the front. Aero is equal across all makes. Says who? Only the CoT guarantees a level playing field. The current templates still aren't the same for all manufacturers. When was the last time you heard a driver complaining about it? If there were any significant aero differences you can bet you'd be hearing the drivers complain. When was the last time you saw one brand suffer an aero disadvantage compared to another? |
Dodge. They submit a new nose, thenNascar changes the rules making everything they tested and worked out,
basically obsolete. This was last year. New nose again this year to
compensate for the spoiler change, then Nascar ups the number of COT races
by a lot, making the Dodge teams basically "develop" two cars if they want
to even stand a chance at making the Chase.
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So you tell me - what's the deal with drivers like Martin? Maybe he didn't have the incentive to push for Jack? Maybe now, with a new team - not a new manufacturer, he feels re-invigorated? Let's face it - Martin is a better driver than he has presented himself to be for over five years now. I still don't believe he has the fire in his gut to be a champion, but he might just have a new excitement for the sport. An excitement that is fueled by something within the team and not related to manufacturer. Um, yeah. I'm sure the car has nothing to do with it. The reason Martin is cranking out top 5's with a new team (new to him) right off the bat *must* be totally due to his attitude. I think that's the biggest part of it. I can't prove it, but that's what I'm guessing. Well, let's see. What is Yates these days? I think Roush has problems under the covers that affect how much his drivers/teams really want to work for him. Do tell. What are these problems? Don't know - that's why I said "I think". Look at Burton - he seemed to have come alive after leaving Roush, and not just because he was in a better car. Remember, it was quite a while before he did anything in that Cingular Chevy, but his attitude was remarkably different. I think I see the same thing in Martin. Busch left to go drive a Dodge. He was a Champion with that Ford team, but he left it all behind. I don't think life is all that happy at Jack's house. Who else is there in the Ford camp? Dodge... geeze, who in the hell even wants to drive a Dodge? Kurt saw an opportunity to be more prominent than he was at Roush. Evernaham teams... pray for them. Kasey is only good for google eyed girly commercials. I agree - they can't compete with Chevy's leftovers, but don't look at the manufacturers, look at the owner/teams. Why would I look at owners & teams when there is a clear-cut, across-the-board advantage? Tell me that again when those Roush Fords are toasting the rest of the field. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net |
#29
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"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow (AT) alltel (DOT) net> wrote in message news:72308$46256b5d$4b58a657$7818 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET... When was the last time you heard a driver complaining about it? If there were any significant aero differences you can bet you'd be hearing the drivers complain. When was the last time you saw one brand suffer an aero disadvantage compared to another? Um, I need to answer this one. Dodge. They submit a new nose, thenNascar changes the rules making everything they tested and worked out, basically obsolete. This was last year. New nose again this year to compensate for the spoiler change, then Nascar ups the number of COT races by a lot, making the Dodge teams basically "develop" two cars if they want to even stand a chance at making the Chase. |
The Dodge nose fiasco was as much Dodge's doing as it was anything NASCAR
subjected them to. But still - my point was that you don't hear Dodge teams
crying that they suffer an aero disadvantage. You'd hear that if they
really did. My point was that the cars today are pretty much aero equal.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net
#30
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"43fan" <sleap13 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote in message news:WYednRFOaacYdrjbnZ2dnUVZ_h-vnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... "Mike Marlow" <mmarlow (AT) alltel (DOT) net> wrote in message news:72308$46256b5d$4b58a657$7818 (AT) ALLTEL (DOT) NET... When was the last time you heard a driver complaining about it? If there were any significant aero differences you can bet you'd be hearing the drivers complain. When was the last time you saw one brand suffer an aero disadvantage compared to another? Um, I need to answer this one. Dodge. They submit a new nose, thenNascar changes the rules making everything they tested and worked out, basically obsolete. This was last year. New nose again this year to compensate for the spoiler change, then Nascar ups the number of COT races by a lot, making the Dodge teams basically "develop" two cars if they want to even stand a chance at making the Chase. Yeah, but everyone has to keep two cars going. Dodge isn't unique in that. Yes, they are. Everyone has to keep two cars going yes, but the Dodge teams |
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The Dodge nose fiasco was as much Dodge's doing as it was anything NASCAR subjected them to. |
They tested and wanted to introduce the new nose in the middle of '05,
Nascar told them no, had to wait til '06. Then after it's approved, Nascar
changes the spoiler rules which negated virtually everything Dodge had done
with the new nose. The biggest problem with the Dodge's in '05 and '06 was
balance. The new nose, with the old spoiler rules, balanced the car out.
When Nascar changed the spoiler, the balance was gone again. Then Nascar
refused to allow Dodge a change in '06, after they themselves(Nascar) caused
the problem!
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But still - my point was that you don't hear Dodge teams crying that they suffer an aero disadvantage. You'd hear that if they really did. My point was that the cars today are pretty much aero equal. |
balance of the car for virtually the past two seasons. Maybe you don't read
the after race reports by the drivers, CC's and owners of the Dodges, but I
do.
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-- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net |
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