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Engine Question
Nascar NASCAR and other professional stock car racing (rec.autos.sport.nascar)
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#11
 
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Re: Engine Question -
04-25-2006
, 07:57 PM
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I just wonder how many heads *are* approved for NASCAR racing? |
own heads, and Ford contracts it out to Yates.
John
#12
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It is a science to get that hp from a 358ci motor. |
building a top-notch Cup motor is unbelievable...a guy might
spend an entire day going thru a hundred sets of rod bearings
to find 8 which are "right", and prep them for install - the
dimensions have to be perfect, the oil holes drilled in
exactly the right place, the edges of the oil hole chamfered,
the edges of the bearing relieved, the front cleaned with a
particular scotchbrite pad to give the right texture to hold
oil, and on & on.
John
#13
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"crazy dave" <463pmd (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message news:jEf3g.2482$E41.661 (AT) trnddc03 (DOT) .. Can someone tell me what engines are run in the NASCAR versions of the three automakers still involved in the sport? Do they have to have any resemblance to what is used in regular cars or are they chebby/dodge/ford Dart/Merlin or some other vendor blocks, aftermarket forged cranks, rods, pistons, etc. Can they run aluminum heads and solid rollers? I'd really like to know because making 700 hp on an N/A engine takes some work but making a 700 hp small cube engine that will last 4 hours under all the various track conditions has to be a science. Dave The blocks may not be specific part numbers - custom pieces if you will, but the heads in all likelihood do. And have to be approved by NASCAR, usually by specifying accepted part numbers as provided on the as-submitted heads from the manufacturers. Intakes are also governed, as witnessed by the Derrick Cope saga, but I think can be aftermarket so long as they carry the proper part number (which means they must meet certain standards/guidelines set forth by the OEM). They have no resemblance to what is currently run in regular cars. They are setup for high compression, high output use and nothing else. The makers all have street offerings "near" the roughly 6 liters that are a NASCAR V8, Chevy has their LS2 6.0 360, Mopar has their 5.7 360 Hemi, etc., but none offer an exact 358 cid NASCAR knock-off. The heads may be variants of something in a particular OEM's foodchain, but that's about it IMO. The carbs are likely super-tuned Holleys off the shelf. Can't get a rule book, so we don't know if they allow Demon or any other carb make. And they go to extraordinary lengths to make the engines last a race weekend. High-end, not-off-the-shelf lubricants are used - usually pure synthetic today. They coat most of their internal/rotating parts with titanium nitrate I believe it is, to prevent as much heat fatique as possible. |
Technology developed from F1 racing.
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And of course they have a lot MORE oil in their systems than the basic 4-6 quarts found in the pan of a street car. And I never really gave it much thought before now, but I *think* NASCAR's oiling system is of the dry sump nature. This is a feature presently only found in the brand new Corvette Z06/LS7 so far as street cars go. |
#14
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| I'm sure not one-off castings. Probably cast by an outsourcing OEM for the big 3 in quantities, not like for production car quantities but not one-off. Machining the heads is more "like" one-off, they want to be able to repeat the good ones ... but then make them better by tweaking ... and if it *is* better ... repeat that one ... but then ... I got involved with nascar when they were in the process of developing that repeat, tweak, test, repeat, ... process and trying to move away from the old hand-rubbed, non-repeatable, black magic way of finishing heads. The advent of CNC technology has made cylinder head developement a much more |
#15
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"Ed Medlin" <ed (AT) edmedlin (DOT) com> wrote in news:A_p3g.51866$_S7.30803 (AT) newssvr14 (DOT) news.prodigy.com: It is a science to get that hp from a 358ci motor. Art more than science, really. The level of detail applied to building a top-notch Cup motor is unbelievable...a guy might spend an entire day going thru a hundred sets of rod bearings to find 8 which are "right", and prep them for install - the dimensions have to be perfect, the oil holes drilled in exactly the right place, the edges of the oil hole chamfered, the edges of the bearing relieved, the front cleaned with a particular scotchbrite pad to give the right texture to hold oil, and on & on. John |
Cup engine. Cope's "one engine" problem puts it in perspective. He knows he
can't compete with the front runners, but if he can make a race he could
build more even if he finishes last. In addition to the above, intakes and
headers are "tweaked" (polished a bit...:-) staying within the Nascar
boundaries too. Scotchbrite is a mainstay I bet........:-) There is a very
small amount of HP between the front runners and the backmarkers drivers
being equal.
Ed
#16
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"SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in news:czw3g.14115$Sa1.13510 (AT) tornado (DOT) southeast.rr.com: I just wonder how many heads *are* approved for NASCAR racing? One for each brand. As far as I know, GM and Dodge make their own heads, and Ford contracts it out to Yates. John |
manufacturers. For whatever reason, the spec over in the NHRA appears to
make each of the last 2 generations of tech legal for competition.
#17
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There is a very small amount of HP between the front runners and the backmarkers drivers being equal. |
guys like Cope & Shelmerdine, but probably about 30 between say
the 24 & the 4. The big difference now-a-days is in the torque
curve, how the engines make power between say 5000 and 8000rpm.
It's all about driveability off the corners.
John
#18
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They coat most of their internal/rotating parts with titanium nitrate I believe it is, to prevent as much heat fatique as possible. The cylinder sleeves have a super slick, super durable, 'nicasil' coating. Technology developed from F1 racing. |
different parts of the engine. Coatings to hold oil where you
need it to be slippery, coatings to repel oil where you don't
(e.g. the crank counterweights), coatings to reject heat (e.g.
on top of the piston), coatings to conduct heat (e.g. on the
valve seats). A lot of the tech did come from F1, some of
it came right from aerospace to NASCAR.
John
#19
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"24-Dynasty" <2X.better.than@2X-champs> wrote in news:fOA3g.12795$i41.789 (AT) newsread1 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net: They coat most of their internal/rotating parts with titanium nitrate I believe it is, to prevent as much heat fatique as possible. The cylinder sleeves have a super slick, super durable, 'nicasil' coating. Technology developed from F1 racing. Actually, they use half-a-dozen different coatings, now, on different parts of the engine. Coatings to hold oil where you need it to be slippery, coatings to repel oil where you don't (e.g. the crank counterweights), coatings to reject heat (e.g. on top of the piston), coatings to conduct heat (e.g. on the valve seats). A lot of the tech did come from F1, some of it came right from aerospace to NASCAR. John |
headed to N shops that were titanium nitrate (?) coated. The same shop that
did some ceramic coating for me did it for a smaller shop out in Mooresville
that apparently couldn't do it in-house. Wouldn't tell me who. They also did
some similar work for an NHRA Comp legend (formerly) out of Lumberton NC,
Jeff Taylor, so I had no reason to doubt what they were telling me.
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