Here's an idea....

#11

Carey Akin wrote:

Quote:

"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote in message
news:1134749649.093926.236120 (AT) z14g2000cwz (DOT) googlegroups.com...

Carey Akin wrote:

If it weren't for that political power in the old days of the unions,
U.S. workers today would be enjoying sweat shop conditions, locked exit
doors during the work day, 18 hour work days, child labor, no sick
leave, no benefits whatsoever, totally unsafe working conditions, etc.
I will agree that they don't have the same usefulness as they did when
there was a good reason to have a union to belong to, but that doesn't
mean that they are all bad, and they certainly did a LOT of good for
the U.S. workforce.

Regardless of your opinion of unions (I have been a member of three maritime
unions) I still don't see how they would benefit the drivers. What I can
say about unions is that they set a low common denominator, and at least for
the common trade unions, do not tend to promote excellence. I do know that
on a personal level, I did far better for my self in the maritime business
by working non-union, not being restricted by compensation plans agreed to
in collective bargaining agreements.

Carey in Manvel

I imagine the quality of the union worker depends on location (you're
in Canada, right?) and trade. Here in the midwest, union workers are
among the best and most highly skilled. My son is a journeyman
electrician - went to school part time (in chunks of time each year)
for 5 years and apprenticed full time during the same period before
becoming a journeyman. There is no low common denominator in his trade
(IBEW) union.

Still, I know many union electricians my age, who agree that unions
have pretty much outlived their usefulness. The best of all worlds are
companies that are mixed union and non-union. Here, that is common.
I'm not so sure about other areas of the country.

N.

#12

"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

Carey Akin wrote:
"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote in message
news:1134749649.093926.236120 (AT) z14g2000cwz (DOT) googlegroups.com...

Carey Akin wrote:

If it weren't for that political power in the old days of the unions,
U.S. workers today would be enjoying sweat shop conditions, locked exit
doors during the work day, 18 hour work days, child labor, no sick
leave, no benefits whatsoever, totally unsafe working conditions, etc.
I will agree that they don't have the same usefulness as they did when
there was a good reason to have a union to belong to, but that doesn't
mean that they are all bad, and they certainly did a LOT of good for
the U.S. workforce.

Regardless of your opinion of unions (I have been a member of three
maritime
unions) I still don't see how they would benefit the drivers. What I can
say about unions is that they set a low common denominator, and at least
for
the common trade unions, do not tend to promote excellence. I do know
that
on a personal level, I did far better for my self in the maritime
business
by working non-union, not being restricted by compensation plans agreed
to
in collective bargaining agreements.

Carey in Manvel

I imagine the quality of the union worker depends on location (you're
in Canada, right?) and trade. Here in the midwest, union workers are
among the best and most highly skilled. My son is a journeyman
electrician - went to school part time (in chunks of time each year)
for 5 years and apprenticed full time during the same period before
becoming a journeyman. There is no low common denominator in his trade
(IBEW) union.

Still, I know many union electricians my age, who agree that unions
have pretty much outlived their usefulness. The best of all worlds are
companies that are mixed union and non-union. Here, that is common.
I'm not so sure about other areas of the country.

N.

When people speak of "bad" unions, I think they are mostly referring to the
UAW, which has created a hugely inflated wage scale in the automotive
industry.

And before anyone tells me that statement is crap, post a listing of UAW
jobs (particularly low skill jobs) and their pay rates compared to similar
non-union jobs. Its disgusting how overpaid some of them are.

#13

Exactly, the drivers can form a union-like solidarity against
the sanctioning body. Typically a 'labor union' is but I'm not
sure it absolutely must be between employer and employee.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:47:58 -0500, "Gordon" <theo (AT) bestway (DOT) net>
wrote:

Quote:

Maybe not a union per se, but some type of CBA to insure these guys are not
locked out of the bigger picture (TV money)

#14

"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

From Jayski, from the Long Island Press: I particularly like the last
couple paragraphs.

N.

Fact: On Dec. 2, Gordon didn't show up at the Awards Gala at the
Waldorf-Astoria.

Is this any different than an actor not showing up to receive an Oscar?

Quote:

G

#15

"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote

Quote:

I imagine the quality of the union worker depends on location (you're
in Canada, right?) and trade. Here in the midwest, union workers are
among the best and most highly skilled. My son is a journeyman
electrician - went to school part time (in chunks of time each year)
for 5 years and apprenticed full time during the same period before
becoming a journeyman. There is no low common denominator in his trade
(IBEW) union.

No, not even close to Canada.

Quote:

Still, I know many union electricians my age, who agree that unions
have pretty much outlived their usefulness. The best of all worlds are
companies that are mixed union and non-union. Here, that is common.
I'm not so sure about other areas of the country.

One of the good things about a union such as IBEW is the apprentice program.

Unfortunately, that is lost on most maritime unions. I can't give an
informed opinion about others like the Teamsters, but it seems that "other
interests" have taken over the day to day operation of them, like the
maritime unions, to the detriment of members and businesses alike.

Carey in Manvel

#16

"Alan Jones" <alan (AT) alanjones (DOT) us> wrote

Quote:

Exactly, the drivers can form a union-like solidarity against
the sanctioning body. Typically a 'labor union' is but I'm not
sure it absolutely must be between employer and employee.

From the unions that I have been in, the agreement is between the employer
and the union. The union then supplies the labor (Going to job call, and
having the available jobs posted on a board). The worker has an agreement,
if you will, between themselves and the union. The employer then pays the
worker on a formula decided in a collective bargaining agreement, either
scale based on the type of work and position, or separate "special"
agreement.

You can't crawfish out of your idiocy this time, Janal. But it will be
interesting to see you try.

Carey in Manvel

#17

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote in message
news:1134753104.093175.134660 (AT) g43g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com...

I imagine the quality of the union worker depends on location (you're
in Canada, right?) and trade. Here in the midwest, union workers are
among the best and most highly skilled. My son is a journeyman
electrician - went to school part time (in chunks of time each year)
for 5 years and apprenticed full time during the same period before
becoming a journeyman. There is no low common denominator in his trade
(IBEW) union.

No, not even close to Canada.

Still, I know many union electricians my age, who agree that unions
have pretty much outlived their usefulness. The best of all worlds are
companies that are mixed union and non-union. Here, that is common.
I'm not so sure about other areas of the country.

One of the good things about a union such as IBEW is the apprentice
program.
Unfortunately, that is lost on most maritime unions. I can't give an
informed opinion about others like the Teamsters, but it seems that "other
interests" have taken over the day to day operation of them, like the
maritime unions, to the detriment of members and businesses alike.

Carey in Manvel

one of the primary functions of unions like Teamsters was to manage

pensions. As we now know rife with corruption in many cases. My former
employer's company managed pension didn't fare any better, its now gone due
largely to poor management.

Quote:

G

#18

Gordon wrote:

Quote:

"Nancy1" <nancy-dooley (AT) uiowa (DOT) edu> wrote in message
news:1134684057.829705.305290 (AT) g43g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com...
From Jayski, from the Long Island Press: I particularly like the last
couple paragraphs.

N.

Fact: On Dec. 2, Gordon didn't show up at the Awards Gala at the
Waldorf-Astoria.

Is this any different than an actor not showing up to receive an Oscar?

G

Well, the actor's payoff comes in the future. They don't get handed a
check at the award ceremony.

Evidently Nascar is too embarrassed by their goof to acknowledge that
yes, they gave JG permission to miss it.

N.

#19

"Gordon" <theo (AT) bestway (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

Is this any different than an actor not showing up to receive an Oscar?

Are you saying that he should have had an Indian girl accept in his place?

(Old folks will remember this one)

Carey in Manvel

#20

Carey Akin wrote:

Quote:

"Gordon" <theo (AT) bestway (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:dnv0d4$rc0q$1 (AT) usenet (DOT) osg.ufl.edu...

Is this any different than an actor not showing up to receive an Oscar?

Are you saying that he should have had an Indian girl accept in his place?

(Old folks will remember this one)

Carey in Manvel

I'm an old folk, so I remember. Hard to believe Marlon's gone, eh?

N.