Newman's Attitude

#11

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:52:10 -0500, "armpit" <udontneedit (AT) myemail (DOT) addy> wrote:

Quote:

The purpose of multi-car teams helping each other is that there is supposed
to be information shared to and from all teams, therefore improving all the
sharing teams, who then can race amongst themselves for the win.

But no one said you had to tell your teammates EVERYTHING...

For the past year I have gotten the impression the purpose of an owner having
more than one team is to earn more money. After all, isn't that the purpose of
making an investment in a team for the owner? Why else make the investment? And
if that is true, isn't it to the owner's advantage to share info so more of his
cars finish toward the top, so he/she can make more money?

Nothing wrong with money mind you. The driver also wants to finish toward the
top for money also. But the driver also wants a reputation of being the best
driver and surely doesn't want his teammates taking that distinction, especially
with his help.

Seems to me drivers and crew chiefs are put in an awful position.

#12

"Paul" wrote ...

Quote:

For the past year I have gotten the impression the purpose of an owner having
more than one team is to earn more money. After all, isn't that the purpose
of
making an investment in a team for the owner? Why else make the investment?

Well, the old joke in nascar has always been that the way to make a small
fortune in nascar is to start with a big fortune ... but I don't think that's so
true anymore ... these guys aren't driving used Winnebagos.

Quote:

And if that is true, isn't it to the owner's advantage to share info so more
of his
cars finish toward the top, so he/she can make more money?

Nothing wrong with money mind you. The driver also wants to finish toward the
top for money also. But the driver also wants a reputation of being the best
driver and surely doesn't want his teammates taking that distinction,
especially
with his help.

Seems to me drivers and crew chiefs are put in an awful position.

You have drawn the distinction between the different areas of "teaming" - off
the track and on the track. Off the track common set-ups give way to sharing of
notes, test results, engineering data, ... and are areas where having a
multi-car "team" (rather than a multi-car operation) will do what you describe.
Rusty and Mayfield, for example, may as well have been driving Fords and
moonrovers and were more part of a Penske multi-car operation. Given a common
platform, it almost is out of the drivers' hands as the CC and other team
members can compare notes on these things.

On the track, it gets a little murkier with driving a bit more cautiously and
more respectfully around your teammate (RCR cars seemed to struggle with this,
'specially when RG was on the team and some RR teammates. HMS cars seem to do
this well.) not wrecking your teammate (8/15), subtly blocking/holding up a
faster car to benefit your teammate and the ever popular giving laps back ...

And on the track there's a difference between racing but respecting your
teammate on the last lap so as to not take out your owners' 1-2 finish and team
orders.

#13

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:46:20 -0500, "WildWeasel" <wweasel_24 (AT) HooYah (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

You have drawn the distinction between the different areas of "teaming" - off
the track and on the track. Off the track common set-ups give way to sharing of
notes, test results, engineering data, ... and are areas where having a
multi-car "team" (rather than a multi-car operation) will do what you describe.
Rusty and Mayfield, for example, may as well have been driving Fords and
moonrovers and were more part of a Penske multi-car operation. Given a common
platform, it almost is out of the drivers' hands as the CC and other team
members can compare notes on these things.

On the track, it gets a little murkier with driving a bit more cautiously and
more respectfully around your teammate (RCR cars seemed to struggle with this,
'specially when RG was on the team and some RR teammates. HMS cars seem to do
this well.) not wrecking your teammate (8/15), subtly blocking/holding up a
faster car to benefit your teammate and the ever popular giving laps back ...

And on the track there's a difference between racing but respecting your
teammate on the last lap so as to not take out your owners' 1-2 finish and team
orders.

Oh yah. I see the distinction. On track can be a different story. I surely
wouldn't do anything to take a teammate out for sure. I have heard Mark Martin
and Carl Edwards both say on the radio, "hey, Carl seems faster than I am so I
am not going to get in his way. Tell him I will let him pass." Or, bumpdrafting
your teammate past another car IF he is faster that day than you are. That kind
of stuff is okay but it depends on who has the fastest car that day.

I have seen guys let a teammate pass to take the lead and get the 5 points and I
am not so sure I would do that. The championship could come down to 4 point
difference. If he can pass me on his own---go for it.

But off track---nooooo I would not like helping the competition.

#14

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

Quote:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:52:10 -0500, "armpit" <udontneedit (AT) myemail (DOT) addy
wrote:

The purpose of multi-car teams helping each other is that there is
supposed
to be information shared to and from all teams, therefore improving all
the
sharing teams, who then can race amongst themselves for the win.

But no one said you had to tell your teammates EVERYTHING...

For the past year I have gotten the impression the purpose of an owner
having
more than one team is to earn more money. After all, isn't that the
purpose of
making an investment in a team for the owner?

Actually, more money isn't the primary reason if I had to guess. It would be
more for gaining more information (in the old days, each team got 7 tests.
If an owner owns 5 "teams", that's 35 tests throughout the year if they want
to use them all)...this information can be passed around among teammates,
and used to gain an advantage against the field for the entire organization.
Also, it's more cards in the hat when it comes time to appoint a Champ thru
the Chase system that's now in place. And it is this reason I somewhat find
Tony winning the title out from under 5 Roush cars this past year, somewhat
satisfying. ;-p

Quote:

Why else make the investment? And if that is true, isn't it to the
owner's advantage to share info so > more of his cars finish toward the top,

so he/she can make more money?

Money is a driving force, no doubt. But I think you're putting a little too
much emphasis on it. Once these full time guys get to Cup, they're making
mucho Jack, period. At this level it is about winning races and competing
for the Championship moreso than each week's driving salary and prize money
split.

Do you think folks like Kirk Shelmerdine are really out there for the money?
He is (or was?) out there because racing is in his blood. He (as a
championship winning CC) could likely have a nice, cushy, high paying job in
almost any shop on the tour, yet he chooses to build cars, and drag them to
far away tracks, and attempt to qualify for races on time every week. That's
passion, not greed IMO. I'd go so far as to say he loses money every year,
yet there he is every so often, in his mainly unsponsored and plain looking
cars, trying to get into a race with no provisionals or garaunteed spots
available to him. Dave Marcis was the same way, for probably 20 years or
more past his "prime". And even HE didn't go away, he's one of the main
setup/car guys over in the IROC series now.

Quote:

Nothing wrong with money mind you. The driver also wants to finish toward
the
top for money also. But the driver also wants a reputation of being the
best
driver and surely doesn't want his teammates taking that distinction,
especially
with his help.

Yes, but this is the ultimate game of you scratch my back and I'll scratch
yours. Sometimes every team driver has to "take one for the team" so when
it's his turn, he'll have "earned" any help that may come his way, one day,
too. Rick Hendrick was the one that saw "team racing" as the way of the
future with the exponential amount of test data it could bring, plus the
ability to spread out resources over several cars/teams making the process
more effecient in a business sense. Gibbs' tangent of "2 cars, one team" has
helped them to 3 titles over the past 5-6 years. So that's my basis for
saying, more money? Sure, it can make more money, but I think it's about
winning more, getting into the Chase thingie, and winning Championships is
what really drives most of these cats.

Quote:

Seems to me drivers and crew chiefs are put in an awful position.

#15

On 2006-01-10 21:44:58 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

Quote:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:14:22 -0500, Julia <nospam (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote:

On 2006-01-10 20:22:43 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:50:13 -0600, "SG" <spaamtrapper (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

With the way Rusty ran the last couple of years makes you wonder
if retiring was a better option than continuing to put up with
Ryan. I'm sure Rusty still had a couple years left in him. I
rooted for Ryan when he first entered being a, close enough to,
hometown boy, but root against him more, than for, lately.
Wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of the real problems
between them.

Two very strong personalities clashing?

Yep.... but that could very well become the case again with Kurt Busch
becoming the new teammate / sparring partner.

Oh yes. I can see that happening as well.

I picture Ryan like this:

Look kid, I have my team and you have your team, go figure it out for yourself.
Got a charity you need help with? Give me a call. Otherwise, who are you?

at which point, Kurt would remind him that he is the 2004 Nextel Cup
Champ with a few more wins than Ryan.... and then the real fireworks
would start...

--
...."I dreamed the devil and the Lord, they were dancing arm in arm"...
$1 to Dave from "JTR"

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3655

#16

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:03:07 -0500, Julia <nospam (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

On 2006-01-10 21:44:58 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

I picture Ryan like this:

Look kid, I have my team and you have your team, go figure it out for yourself.
Got a charity you need help with? Give me a call. Otherwise, who are you?

at which point, Kurt would remind him that he is the 2004 Nextel Cup
Champ with a few more wins than Ryan.... and then the real fireworks
would start...

Right again Julia. At which point Ryan would say, "Then what the hell are you
asking ME for, kid?"
--
Paul of El Cajon

#17

On 2006-01-11 17:16:19 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

Quote:

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:03:07 -0500, Julia <nospam (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote:

On 2006-01-10 21:44:58 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

I picture Ryan like this:

Look kid, I have my team and you have your team, go figure it out for yourself.
Got a charity you need help with? Give me a call. Otherwise, who are you?

at which point, Kurt would remind him that he is the 2004 Nextel Cup
Champ with a few more wins than Ryan.... and then the real fireworks
would start...

Right again Julia. At which point Ryan would say, "Then what the hell are you
asking ME for, kid?"

LOL... and Kurt would probably respond that he wanted to get an
engineer's explanation on why Ryan just can't get it together on race
day...

--
...."I dreamed the devil and the Lord, they were dancing arm in arm"...
$1 to Dave from "JTR"

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3655

#18

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:58:18 -0500, Julia <nospam (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

On 2006-01-11 17:16:19 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

Right again Julia. At which point Ryan would say, "Then what the hell are you
asking ME for, kid?"

LOL... and Kurt would probably respond that he wanted to get an
engineer's explanation on why Ryan just can't get it together on race
day...

Well even *I* can answer that one. Ryan is pooped out after qualification day.
:-)

Actually, I wonder if Ryan's car just doesn't play well in traffic. He does
great by himself. He shows he can handle a race car at very fast speeds but the
car just doesn't seem to cooperate in traffic. Of course it could be that Ryan
is afraid when there are other cars around but I doubt that very much.

What say you NASCAR experts?
--
Paul of El Cajon

#19

On 2006-01-11 19:00:08 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

Quote:

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:58:18 -0500, Julia <nospam (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote:

On 2006-01-11 17:16:19 -0500, Paul <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> said:

Right again Julia. At which point Ryan would say, "Then what the hell are you
asking ME for, kid?"

LOL... and Kurt would probably respond that he wanted to get an
engineer's explanation on why Ryan just can't get it together on race
day...

Well even *I* can answer that one. Ryan is pooped out after qualification day.
:-)

LOL... well, he is really gonna suffer now that they are getting rid of
most of those impound races.

Quote:

Actually, I wonder if Ryan's car just doesn't play well in traffic. He does
great by himself. He shows he can handle a race car at very fast
speeds but the
car just doesn't seem to cooperate in traffic. Of course it could be that Ryan
is afraid when there are other cars around but I doubt that very much.

What say you NASCAR experts?

well, it isn't just Ryan's car that doesn't handle traffic well, it is
Dodges in general. They have issues with their aero package that they
haven't been able to get a handle on. They petitioned NASCAR for a new
nose during this off season and they were denied, so I don't espect
that things will be getting any better for them.

--
...."I dreamed the devil and the Lord, they were dancing arm in arm"...
$1 to Dave from "JTR"

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3655

#20

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:52:08 -0500, Julia <nospam (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Well even *I* can answer that one. Ryan is pooped out after qualification day.
:-)

LOL... well, he is really gonna suffer now that they are getting rid of
most of those impound races.

I think I have to agree with you. Sad too. After one season I am not a fan of
any one driver. There are a couple I like more that the others but not a fan.
Today however I watched an interview of Ryan and I am liking him more and more.
On a personal level I think he and I would fight like cats and dogs. But,
publicly I think he is pretty cool. I liked the way he handled everyone teasing
him about gaining weight.

Quote:

Actually, I wonder if Ryan's car just doesn't play well in traffic. He does
great by himself. He shows he can handle a race car at very fast
speeds but the
car just doesn't seem to cooperate in traffic. Of course it could be that Ryan
is afraid when there are other cars around but I doubt that very much.

well, it isn't just Ryan's car that doesn't handle traffic well, it is
Dodges in general. They have issues with their aero package that they
haven't been able to get a handle on. They petitioned NASCAR for a new
nose during this off season and they were denied, so I don't espect
that things will be getting any better for them.

Just do not understand it! Chevy can have a different nose. Ford can have a
different nose. But not the Dodge? Heil NASCAR! NOT!
--
Paul of El Cajon