 | |
Preferential Treatment In NASCAR
Nascar NASCAR and other professional stock car racing (rec.autos.sport.nascar)
 |
| | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
#61
 
| |||
| |||
|
Re: Preferential Treatment In NASCAR -
05-19-2007
, 08:25 AM
|
All of this bickering about the science of cooling.... Here is what I have found in a nutshell.. By actually looking at the gauges. No scientific tests. Caution flags... temp goes up. Green flag... temp goes down. in; Car with belt driven fan. Car with electric fan w/on/off switch. Car with no fan. Dan **************************************** I'm going to stop putting things off. Starting tomorrow. |
#62
| |||
| |||
|
|
All of this bickering about the science of cooling.... Here is what I have found in a nutshell.. By actually looking at the gauges. No scientific tests. Caution flags... temp goes up. Green flag... temp goes down. in; Car with belt driven fan. Car with electric fan w/on/off switch. Car with no fan. |
green is more than, say, 50mph. Slower than that and airflow
thru the radiator is determined mostly by the fan.
I recall a race several years back at Hialeah, where for some
reason they ran 8 or 10 laps under yellow before red-flagging
for cleanup. One of the cars was real hot, so he ran about 20
laps using turns 3 & 4 and the figure-8 crossover in the infield
to get cooled down while the track crew was in turn 1 (the
starter was not amused).
John
#63
| |||
| |||
|
| Jeff wasn't driving an airplane, |
so your whole compressed air theory holds
Quote:
|
no water. A racecar doesn't operate at the altitude an airplane does so atmospheric pressure has little effect on the velocity of air being forced through the radiator opening |
definitely effects the velocity of air moving through the rad, ...... so as
car speed increases, air velocity increases, ... therefore volume of
(cooling) air increases ......... and coolant temp drops. THis of course
doesn't account for increased heat production in the engine as RPM's (to
make that car go faster) go up - but given what was going on with Jeff's
car, it would appear that the (cooling) air volume curve must have been
steeper than the higher RPM heat generation curve.
#64
| ||||
| ||||
|
|
What does "a good aero package" have to do with cooling an engine? "A good aero package" allows a racecar to either stick to the track better, or move through the air more efficiently. It has nothing to do with cooling effiency. |
to "enhance" aero characteristics. Closed grill ports > better aero >
reduced cooling.
Quote:
|
Speaking of effieciency, airflow going through the radiator to cool the engine is far more efficient at 180 mph vs 55 mph. |
effect is more efficient.
Quote:
|
All of the tape was removed from the grille on Gordon's car, so there was nothing else Letarte could do to help the overheating problems, hence, Gordon was told to stay out. |
by being at race speed.
Quote:
|
You are arguing that Gordon's radiator was more efficient in cooling the car at pace lap speed than race speed. |
debate.
#65
| |||
| |||
|
|
On May 18, 5:02 pm, "\"\"78\"\"" <cales-s... (AT) next (DOT) net> wrote: "Mark" <mblackwell1... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1179524187.986509.319520 (AT) y80g2000hsf (DOT) googlegroups.com... Did I say anywhere that Jeff didn't have the talent. No Nine USAC championships and he tore up I think 14 front clips in his first year of Busch racing along. Even with all these mishaps he still became Busch "ROTY". Obviously his finishing performance made up for the dnf's. Clearly he wasn't ready or he wouldn't have wrecked so much. USAC and Nascar are VERY DIFFERENT skill sets. Some can adapt, and some can't. Jeff adapted by wrecking a bunch of cars that didn't need to be wrecked. Yet timing was good for him. Many of the safety advances were beginning to help. A few years earilier and 14 front clips would have almost certainly meant some serious injury and maybe worse. At that point it may have been another story of what might have been. You mean the same safety advances Kenny Irwin, Adam Petty, and Dale Earnhardt had? Yes they were very bad years. I also remember far more than that if you are interested. So then you agree that throughout JG's early career there was a very real |
He was not as "safe" as you had presumed.
#66
| |||
| |||
|
|
chuck_steak (AT) nospam (DOT) com (Chuck Steak) wrote in news:gIC3i.303$mD.121 @trndny02: All of this bickering about the science of cooling.... Here is what I have found in a nutshell.. By actually looking at the gauges. No scientific tests. Caution flags... temp goes up. Green flag... temp goes down. in; Car with belt driven fan. Car with electric fan w/on/off switch. Car with no fan. I would agree with this, assuming that the average speed under green is more than, say, 50mph. Slower than that and airflow thru the radiator is determined mostly by the fan. I recall a race several years back at Hialeah, where for some reason they ran 8 or 10 laps under yellow before red-flagging for cleanup. One of the cars was real hot, so he ran about 20 laps using turns 3 & 4 and the figure-8 crossover in the infield to get cooled down while the track crew was in turn 1 (the starter was not amused). John What about the "car with NO coolant" scenario? |
The team has reported that JG had only one quart of water left in his engine
at race end.
There was nothing else left to dissipate excess heat other than the oil in
the engine.
#67
| |||
| |||
|
|
What about the "car with NO coolant" scenario? |
Quote:
|
Everyone assumes he had coolant in his car during all that time. The team has reported that JG had only one quart of water left in his engine at race end. |
long as there's some water, most of the engine will stay relatively
close to the "right" temperature. The risk, of course, is that
there'll be a localized hot spot, and something (like a valve) will
melt.
Quote:
|
There was nothing else left to dissipate excess heat other than the oil in the engine. |
for decades.
John
#68
| |||
| |||
|
|
chuck_steak (AT) nospam (DOT) com (Chuck Steak) wrote All of this bickering about the science of cooling.... Here is what I have found in a nutshell.. By actually looking at the gauges. No scientific tests. Caution flags... temp goes up. Green flag... temp goes down. in; Car with belt driven fan. Car with electric fan w/on/off switch. Car with no fan. ....... assuming that the average speed under green is more than, say, 50mph. Slower than that and airflow thru the radiator is determined mostly by the fan. |
It was,
and it is...
Dan
****************************************
I'm going to stop putting things off.
Starting tomorrow.
#69
| |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
|
|
"Mike/Speeed" <speeedracerREMOVE24 (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message news:vY6dna9b0NO2BdPbnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... "Frank from Deeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote: OK Einstein/Newton, of course my opinion goes against what little you know. Jeff Gordon's car had a radiator clogged externally with rubber debris, so how exactly would the radiator do a better job cooling an engine with little air going through it and little water going through it? Jeff wasn't driving an airplane, so your whole compressed air theory holds no water. A racecar doesn't operate at the altitude an airplane does so atmospheric pressure has little effect on the velocity of air being forced through the radiator opening A Cup car is all about aerodynamics, they have spoilers, air dams, rear wings, carborator air intakes at the bottom of the windsheild, small grill openings that force air into a closed expansion chamber in front of the radiator, wings on the top of the roof to prevent a sideways car from going airborne, etc. A good aero package is free horsepower. What does "a good aero package" have to do with cooling an engine? "A good aero package" allows a racecar to either stick to the track better, or move through the air more efficiently. It has nothing to do with cooling effiency. Speaking of effieciency, airflow going through the radiator to cool the engine is far more efficient at 180 mph vs 55 mph. All of the tape was removed from the grille on Gordon's car, so there was nothing else Letarte could do to help the overheating problems, hence, Gordon was told to stay out. You are arguing that Gordon's radiator was more efficient in cooling the car at pace lap speed than race speed. Read my replies. I am saying a cooling system is designed to operate all of the time, at all speeds. |
A 700+ horsepower engine needs to be cooled to
Quote:
|
within the temperature range set by the engine builder. The principles I am pointing out explain how the system works at high speed (using the same design found on a P-51 fighter) and at low speed. The cooling system, if not damaged, and working correctly, must be able to cool the engine from "start your engines" to the checkers. |
Don't you watch the races?
What other possible problem would cause the car to spew fluid at 55, and not
at 185?
Answer one question, at least.
Quote:
|
That is simply not the case. I'll give you that the engine develops more heat at speed than it does at idle, but that is not the point of argument. Have you ever seen a car overheating on the side of the road? What generally happens is that the car blows the radiator when parked and at idle due to the fact that the engine cannot pump enough coolant through the already overheating engine due to the low rpms & diminished volume of coolant running through the engine. What also happens is that hot air pockets form in the cooling passages of the engine and radiator when coolant is lost (remember the water vapor escaping from Gordon's overflow pipe when he slowed down?) The hot air causes the cast iron & aluminum to crack due to a condition called "super heating". It is common knowledge that temperatures in these air pockets have been known to exceed 1500 degrees Fahrenheit - temperatures that cause cast iron & aluminum to fail. Blah, blah, blah, high school auto shop stuff. |
Apparently you missed those classes.
So why did Gordon's car overheat then?
You claim it could be other causes......like what?
Quote:
|
I am not reinventing the wheel here, just stating what actually happens. Ask any crewchief of a raceteam weather he wants an overheating engine running at race speed or at caution speed, and to the man, they would say they want the car running out there at speed where the maximum amount of air can be drawn through the radiator. My statement about compressed air is not a theory, it is taught in high school, and the reference to a P-51 fighter is an example of what I am talking about that was put together in the late 1930's, nothing new, simple to understand the concept. Understanding the concept isn't the issue, it's just that this concept doesn't apply to the discussion at hand here. Yes it does. Go to a race, use your pit pass to talk to the mechanics, they will tell you what they told me and what I have printed here. |
Name names, site reference quotes.
They are telkling you that cars with clogged radiators cool better on pace
laps?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Gimme a fucking break.
Quote:
| Altitude means nothing to a race car, unless one is driving in Denver, speed and air pressure around a race car is what it is all about. Oh yes, remove a little bit of tape from the grill of a Cup car, and the 'at speed' air pressure will enter the grill opening with more volume allowing more air to reach the radiator. Again, Gordon's car had no more tape available to be removed. Using Gordon's situation as an example does nothing to bolster this theory. Gordon's situation is proof, he had a damaged cooling system for anyone one of several reasons. |
Quote:
| "Einstein" is it? I own the largest heavy duty machine shop within a 3000 mile radius of Pittsburgh. We build everything from race engines, to 16 cylinder, 1200 hp Caterpillar diesel engines costing over 100K to rebuild, used in coal & heavy construction. I have over 25 years of experience in every aspect of engine building, machining, operation, and engineering. Your expertise on the subject is drawn from.....what? Aren't you a retired policeman? So, you wrench big engines and I am a 30 veteran retired policeman, nothing says you do good work or I did good work, your point? We do damned good work, otherwise my business wouldn't be in business. A Yogi Berra quote? |
My quote.Twenty five years, annual sales of over 4.5 million.
Quote:
|
I have dealt with the after effects of overheating for decades - many times for externally clogged radiators (clogged with dirt, coal dust, rubber - it doesn't matter). Rebuild the engine, install a clean radiator.....problem solved. When the fans and water pumps are operational, the radiators are free of debris, and the cooling system holds sufficient coolant, these engines do not overheat. These engines don't have aerodynamically engineered pressure chambers. How do you suppose they still can cool these engines? Cup cars do. Next time you go to a race, use your pitpass, and look under the hood of a Cup car. There is a box in front of the radiator. The size of the box ranges from the small grill opening in the front to the size of the radiator. You have to see for yourself. |
You claim Gordon's car cooled more effectively with a clogged radiator at
caution speed, this is due to the rad air box? You are delusional.
Provide proof of this ridiculous claim.
Quote:
|
I'll answer that one for you, with unrestricted airflow. My point about Einstein was to counter your comment about "Your opinion on engine cooling goes against all known data on the subject and breaks several laws of physics as well." Show me proof or remain unlearned about engine cooling and physics, no big deal. Gordon's radiator popped going into victory lane, not on the track. Too much heat, not enough cooling. There you go... Proof that what I said about a damaged cooling system. |
WHAT did you say about his damaged cooling system?
Are you on some sort of medication I should be made aware of?
Are you confuzing me with another?
Quote:
| Drawing parallels between airplane and stock car engineering is akin to comparing a tricycle to a cruise ship. In the sense that a tricycle and a cruise boat are a means of transportation, they are the same. Both require thrust to overcome drag in order to move. And that's where the similarity ends, just as the similarity between an airplane and a racecar ends at the point where they are both means of transportation. Cup cars, Indy cars, F-1, Truck Seris, and a host of other race cars use aerodynamics to obtain free horse power. Aero involves engine air intake, brake, engine, driver cooling, and to stay gripped to the track. All works together. |
You have an amazing grasp of the obvious.
Quote:
| Cup teams always use wind tunnels to test their aero package. At the Cup level, everything is aero. Jr's crew got busted for using wing brackets that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage." The aero advantage that Jr had wasn't engine cooling related, btw. You are confused, Jr was busted for having an aerodynamic advantage. |
Were you hit on the head when you were a cop?
Quote:
| Oh, and who was suspended from the Daytona 500 for having hollow rear spoiler bolts that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage?" The erodynamic advantage gained by the bolts was that they lowered the car and lessened the drag of the car at the superspeedway. The advantage was a *downforce* advantage. How that would have anything to do with cooling is laughable. Downforce is a componant of aerodynamics. |
Holy shit, without you telling me that, I would have never known.... *rolls
eyes*
Quote:
| Sound like there may be a connection? Absolutely no connection to cooling issues. Isn't that what we're discussing here? These topics are discussed by every NASCAR race, every Sunday, common knowlege to even a rookie NASCAR fan. Perhaps you should pay more attention to these discussions, then. "Aero" discussions in Na$car are always related to *downforce*, not cooling. In your mind, yes, not so in the real world. |
YOUR real world?
lol
Quote:
| Cooling issues are rather simple in regards to auto racing. If you have a functional water pump, a clean, unclogged radiator, and plenty of coolant running through the engine & radiator, cooling is rarely a concern. Gordon's radiator was clogged with rubber debris - allowing a lesser amount of air to get through the radiator - causing the engine to overheat. These cars do not have fans to push air through the rad at slow speeds, so how does one get more air to flow through the radiator to aid in cooling? By getting more air to go through the radiator. How would one get more air to flow through the radiator without the aid of a fan? By getting the car moving faster which in turn, will force more air through the radiator. Simple concept, huh? Maybe not. None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. |
It's relatively clear that you have little or no knowledge as to the
workings of a racing engine or cooling system.
You ignore the obvious & latch onto some bullshit, pie in the sky theory.
I have real world knowledge, you string together some unrelated, non
sensicle theories.
You are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Kind of like a troll, only less informative.
Good luck with your compression theory.
#70
| ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
|
|
"Frank from Deeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote in message news:nr-dnfm9wdHxddPbnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... "Mike/Speeed" <speeedracerREMOVE24 (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message news:vY6dna9b0NO2BdPbnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... "Frank from Deeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote: OK Einstein/Newton, of course my opinion goes against what little you know. Jeff Gordon's car had a radiator clogged externally with rubber debris, so how exactly would the radiator do a better job cooling an engine with little air going through it and little water going through it? Jeff wasn't driving an airplane, so your whole compressed air theory holds no water. A racecar doesn't operate at the altitude an airplane does so atmospheric pressure has little effect on the velocity of air being forced through the radiator opening A Cup car is all about aerodynamics, they have spoilers, air dams, rear wings, carborator air intakes at the bottom of the windsheild, small grill openings that force air into a closed expansion chamber in front of the radiator, wings on the top of the roof to prevent a sideways car from going airborne, etc. A good aero package is free horsepower. What does "a good aero package" have to do with cooling an engine? "A good aero package" allows a racecar to either stick to the track better, or move through the air more efficiently. It has nothing to do with cooling effiency. Speaking of effieciency, airflow going through the radiator to cool the engine is far more efficient at 180 mph vs 55 mph. All of the tape was removed from the grille on Gordon's car, so there was nothing else Letarte could do to help the overheating problems, hence, Gordon was told to stay out. You are arguing that Gordon's radiator was more efficient in cooling the car at pace lap speed than race speed. Read my replies. I am saying a cooling system is designed to operate all of the time, at all speeds. No shit, huh? A 700+ horsepower engine needs to be cooled to within the temperature range set by the engine builder. The principles I am pointing out explain how the system works at high speed (using the same design found on a P-51 fighter) and at low speed. The cooling system, if not damaged, and working correctly, must be able to cool the engine from "start your engines" to the checkers. Gordon's wasn't functioning due to a clogged radiator. Don't you watch the races? What other possible problem would cause the car to spew fluid at 55, and not at 185? Answer one question, at least. |
Quote:
| That is simply not the case. I'll give you that the engine develops more heat at speed than it does at idle, but that is not the point of argument. Have you ever seen a car overheating on the side of the road? What generally happens is that the car blows the radiator when parked and at idle due to the fact that the engine cannot pump enough coolant through the already overheating engine due to the low rpms & diminished volume of coolant running through the engine. What also happens is that hot air pockets form in the cooling passages of the engine and radiator when coolant is lost (remember the water vapor escaping from Gordon's overflow pipe when he slowed down?) The hot air causes the cast iron & aluminum to crack due to a condition called "super heating". It is common knowledge that temperatures in these air pockets have been known to exceed 1500 degrees Fahrenheit - temperatures that cause cast iron & aluminum to fail. Blah, blah, blah, high school auto shop stuff. Apparently you missed those classes. So why did Gordon's car overheat then? You claim it could be other causes......like what? |
Quote:
| I am not reinventing the wheel here, just stating what actually happens. Ask any crewchief of a raceteam weather he wants an overheating engine running at race speed or at caution speed, and to the man, they would say they want the car running out there at speed where the maximum amount of air can be drawn through the radiator. My statement about compressed air is not a theory, it is taught in high school, and the reference to a P-51 fighter is an example of what I am talking about that was put together in the late 1930's, nothing new, simple to understand the concept. Understanding the concept isn't the issue, it's just that this concept doesn't apply to the discussion at hand here. Yes it does. Go to a race, use your pit pass to talk to the mechanics, they will tell you what they told me and what I have printed here. Name names, site reference quotes. They are telkling you that cars with clogged radiators cool better on pace laps? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Gimme a fucking break. |
Quote:
| Altitude means nothing to a race car, unless one is driving in Denver, speed and air pressure around a race car is what it is all about. Oh yes, remove a little bit of tape from the grill of a Cup car, and the 'at speed' air pressure will enter the grill opening with more volume allowing more air to reach the radiator. Again, Gordon's car had no more tape available to be removed. Using Gordon's situation as an example does nothing to bolster this theory. Gordon's situation is proof, he had a damaged cooling system for anyone one of several reasons. For example? |
reasons.
Quote:
| "Einstein" is it? I own the largest heavy duty machine shop within a 3000 mile radius of Pittsburgh. We build everything from race engines, to 16 cylinder, 1200 hp Caterpillar diesel engines costing over 100K to rebuild, used in coal & heavy construction. I have over 25 years of experience in every aspect of engine building, machining, operation, and engineering. Your expertise on the subject is drawn from.....what? Aren't you a retired policeman? So, you wrench big engines and I am a 30 veteran retired policeman, nothing says you do good work or I did good work, your point? We do damned good work, otherwise my business wouldn't be in business. A Yogi Berra quote? My quote.Twenty five years, annual sales of over 4.5 million. |
think your gross would be higher.
Quote:
| I have dealt with the after effects of overheating for decades - many times for externally clogged radiators (clogged with dirt, coal dust, rubber - it doesn't matter). Rebuild the engine, install a clean radiator.....problem solved. When the fans and water pumps are operational, the radiators are free of debris, and the cooling system holds sufficient coolant, these engines do not overheat. These engines don't have aerodynamically engineered pressure chambers. How do you suppose they still can cool these engines? Cup cars do. Next time you go to a race, use your pitpass, and look under the hood of a Cup car. There is a box in front of the radiator. The size of the box ranges from the small grill opening in the front to the size of the radiator. You have to see for yourself. This has what to do with the argument? You claim Gordon's car cooled more effectively with a clogged radiator at caution speed, this is due to the rad air box? You are delusional. Provide proof of this ridiculous claim. |
cooling system will suit you. Go see for yourself, ask the mechanics in
person and they will explain the cooling system to you as I have done.
Quote:
| I'll answer that one for you, with unrestricted airflow. My point about Einstein was to counter your comment about "Your opinion on engine cooling goes against all known data on the subject and breaks several laws of physics as well." Show me proof or remain unlearned about engine cooling and physics, no big deal. Gordon's radiator popped going into victory lane, not on the track. Too much heat, not enough cooling. There you go... Proof that what I said about a damaged cooling system. WHAT did you say about his damaged cooling system? Are you on some sort of medication I should be made aware of? Are you confuzing me with another? |
cooling system had problems, but Stevie Wonder could see there was an issue
with Gordo's cooling system, an issue caused by any one of a number of
reasons.
Quote:
| Drawing parallels between airplane and stock car engineering is akin to comparing a tricycle to a cruise ship. In the sense that a tricycle and a cruise boat are a means of transportation, they are the same. Both require thrust to overcome drag in order to move. And that's where the similarity ends, just as the similarity between an airplane and a racecar ends at the point where they are both means of transportation. Cup cars, Indy cars, F-1, Truck Seris, and a host of other race cars use aerodynamics to obtain free horse power. Aero involves engine air intake, brake, engine, driver cooling, and to stay gripped to the track. All works together. You have an amazing grasp of the obvious. |
Quote:
| Cup teams always use wind tunnels to test their aero package. At the Cup level, everything is aero. Jr's crew got busted for using wing brackets that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage." The aero advantage that Jr had wasn't engine cooling related, btw. You are confused, Jr was busted for having an aerodynamic advantage. I didn't say that. Were you hit on the head when you were a cop? Oh, and who was suspended from the Daytona 500 for having hollow rear spoiler bolts that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage?" The erodynamic advantage gained by the bolts was that they lowered the car and lessened the drag of the car at the superspeedway. The advantage was a *downforce* advantage. How that would have anything to do with cooling is laughable. Downforce is a componant of aerodynamics. Holy shit, without you telling me that, I would have never known.... *rolls eyes* |
Quote:
| Sound like there may be a connection? Absolutely no connection to cooling issues. Isn't that what we're discussing here? These topics are discussed by every NASCAR race, every Sunday, common knowlege to even a rookie NASCAR fan. Perhaps you should pay more attention to these discussions, then. "Aero" discussions in Na$car are always related to *downforce*, not cooling. In your mind, yes, not so in the real world. YOUR real world? lol Cooling issues are rather simple in regards to auto racing. If you have a functional water pump, a clean, unclogged radiator, and plenty of coolant running through the engine & radiator, cooling is rarely a concern. Gordon's radiator was clogged with rubber debris - allowing a lesser amount of air to get through the radiator - causing the engine to overheat. These cars do not have fans to push air through the rad at slow speeds, so how does one get more air to flow through the radiator to aid in cooling? By getting more air to go through the radiator. How would one get more air to flow through the radiator without the aid of a fan? By getting the car moving faster which in turn, will force more air through the radiator. Simple concept, huh? Maybe not. None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. Birds 'could have" flown out of your ass too. It's relatively clear that you have little or no knowledge as to the workings of a racing engine or cooling system. You ignore the obvious & latch onto some bullshit, pie in the sky theory. I have real world knowledge, you string together some unrelated, non sensicle theories. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Kind of like a troll, only less informative. Good luck with your compression theory. |
improving sales.
|
« Previous Thread
|
Next Thread »
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
Linear Mode
| |
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.