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Preferential Treatment In NASCAR
Nascar NASCAR and other professional stock car racing (rec.autos.sport.nascar)
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#71
 
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Re: Preferential Treatment In NASCAR -
05-20-2007
, 10:05 PM
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Gordon's wasn't functioning due to a clogged radiator. Don't you watch the races? What other possible problem would cause the car to spew fluid at 55, and not at 185? Answer one question, at least. Did you read "if not damaged?" |
Backpedaling, aye?
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| That is simply not the case. I'll give you that the engine develops more heat at speed than it does at idle, but that is not the point of argument. Have you ever seen a car overheating on the side of the road? What generally happens is that the car blows the radiator when parked and at idle due to the fact that the engine cannot pump enough coolant through the already overheating engine due to the low rpms & diminished volume of coolant running through the engine. What also happens is that hot air pockets form in the cooling passages of the engine and radiator when coolant is lost (remember the water vapor escaping from Gordon's overflow pipe when he slowed down?) The hot air causes the cast iron & aluminum to crack due to a condition called "super heating". It is common knowledge that temperatures in these air pockets have been known to exceed 1500 degrees Fahrenheit - temperatures that cause cast iron & aluminum to fail. Blah, blah, blah, high school auto shop stuff. Apparently you missed those classes. So why did Gordon's car overheat then? You claim it could be other causes......like what? Read and try to comprehend "if not damaged." |
You want me to comprehend your backpedaling?
Been there, done that already.
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| I am not reinventing the wheel here, just stating what actually happens. Ask any crewchief of a raceteam weather he wants an overheating engine running at race speed or at caution speed, and to the man, they would say they want the car running out there at speed where the maximum amount of air can be drawn through the radiator. My statement about compressed air is not a theory, it is taught in high school, and the reference to a P-51 fighter is an example of what I am talking about that was put together in the late 1930's, nothing new, simple to understand the concept. Understanding the concept isn't the issue, it's just that this concept doesn't apply to the discussion at hand here. Yes it does. Go to a race, use your pit pass to talk to the mechanics, they will tell you what they told me and what I have printed here. Name names, site reference quotes. They are telkling you that cars with clogged radiators cool better on pace laps? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Gimme a fucking break. telkling? Too much to drink this evening? |
form of poetic justice...
And btw, I would correct all of your spelling errors (not typos), but there
are only 24 hours in the day.
OK, Mr. "componant, Truck Seris, explaination, knowlege" boi? (and that's
only scratching the surface...)
Quote:
| Altitude means nothing to a race car, unless one is driving in Denver, speed and air pressure around a race car is what it is all about. Oh yes, remove a little bit of tape from the grill of a Cup car, and the 'at speed' air pressure will enter the grill opening with more volume allowing more air to reach the radiator. Again, Gordon's car had no more tape available to be removed. Using Gordon's situation as an example does nothing to bolster this theory. Gordon's situation is proof, he had a damaged cooling system for anyone one of several reasons. For example? Did youy see steam? There is a reason for the steam, any one of a number of reasons. |
Poetic justice.
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| "Einstein" is it? I own the largest heavy duty machine shop within a 3000 mile radius of Pittsburgh. We build everything from race engines, to 16 cylinder, 1200 hp Caterpillar diesel engines costing over 100K to rebuild, used in coal & heavy construction. I have over 25 years of experience in every aspect of engine building, machining, operation, and engineering. Your expertise on the subject is drawn from.....what? Aren't you a retired policeman? So, you wrench big engines and I am a 30 veteran retired policeman, nothing says you do good work or I did good work, your point? We do damned good work, otherwise my business wouldn't be in business. A Yogi Berra quote? My quote.Twenty five years, annual sales of over 4.5 million. If you are the best engine builder within 3000 miles of Philly, one would think your gross would be higher. |
justice.
I'll take the 4.5 mil a year VS.....How much does a retired policeman on a
pension make a year?
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| I have dealt with the after effects of overheating for decades - many times for externally clogged radiators (clogged with dirt, coal dust, rubber - it doesn't matter). Rebuild the engine, install a clean radiator.....problem solved. When the fans and water pumps are operational, the radiators are free of debris, and the cooling system holds sufficient coolant, these engines do not overheat. These engines don't have aerodynamically engineered pressure chambers. How do you suppose they still can cool these engines? Cup cars do. Next time you go to a race, use your pitpass, and look under the hood of a Cup car. There is a box in front of the radiator. The size of the box ranges from the small grill opening in the front to the size of the radiator. You have to see for yourself. This has what to do with the argument? You claim Gordon's car cooled more effectively with a clogged radiator at caution speed, this is due to the rad air box? You are delusional. Provide proof of this ridiculous claim. You, my friend, must see for your self, as no explaination of how a NASCAR cooling system will suit you. |
overheating cools more efficiently at pace lap speed, but then again, you
*are* arguing for argument's sake anyway.
Lack of answer noted.
Go see for yourself, ask the mechanics in
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person and they will explain the cooling system to you as I have done. |
I'll ask Steve Letarte in person when I see him at Dover in early June. Pit
pass in hand already.
We'll both get a chuckle over your bs "compression theory"...
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| I'll answer that one for you, with unrestricted airflow. My point about Einstein was to counter your comment about "Your opinion on engine cooling goes against all known data on the subject and breaks several laws of physics as well." Show me proof or remain unlearned about engine cooling and physics, no big deal. Gordon's radiator popped going into victory lane, not on the track. Too much heat, not enough cooling. There you go... Proof that what I said about a damaged cooling system. WHAT did you say about his damaged cooling system? Are you on some sort of medication I should be made aware of? Are you confusing me with another? Fuckwit, I was not there, nor am I privi to the exact reason why Gordo's cooling system had problems, but Stevie Wonder could see there was an issue with Gordo's cooling system, an issue caused by any one of a number of reasons. |
"Fuckwit"? Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Name calling: The last ditch effort of one who has been beaten down by
reason.
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| Drawing parallels between airplane and stock car engineering is akin to comparing a tricycle to a cruise ship. In the sense that a tricycle and a cruise boat are a means of transportation, they are the same. Both require thrust to overcome drag in order to move. And that's where the similarity ends, just as the similarity between an airplane and a racecar ends at the point where they are both means of transportation. Cup cars, Indy cars, F-1, Truck Seris, and a host of other race cars use aerodynamics to obtain free horse power. Aero involves engine air intake, brake, engine, driver cooling, and to stay gripped to the track. All works together. You have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Listen and learn. |
From you? My best friend is a police officer and he has yet to tell me
anything I don't already know about engine operation. Did they have special
classes at the police academy in Deeeeetroit about P51 cooling systems and
how they relate to Na$car cooling systems? lol
Quote:
| Cup teams always use wind tunnels to test their aero package. At the Cup level, everything is aero. Jr's crew got busted for using wing brackets that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage." The aero advantage that Jr had wasn't engine cooling related, btw. You are confused, Jr was busted for having an aerodynamic advantage. I didn't say that. Were you hit on the head when you were a cop? Oh, and who was suspended from the Daytona 500 for having hollow rear spoiler bolts that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage?" The aerodynamic advantage gained by the bolts was that they lowered the car and lessened the drag of the car at the superspeedway. The advantage was a *downforce* advantage. How that would have anything to do with cooling is laughable. Downforce is a componant of aerodynamics. Holy shit, without you telling me that, I would have never known.... *rolls eyes* Listen and learn. |
Yeah, "10-4". lol
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| Sound like there may be a connection? Absolutely no connection to cooling issues. Isn't that what we're discussing here? These topics are discussed by every NASCAR race, every Sunday, common knowlege to even a rookie NASCAR fan. Perhaps you should pay more attention to these discussions, then. "Aero" discussions in Na$car are always related to *downforce*, not cooling. In your mind, yes, not so in the real world. YOUR real world? lol Cooling issues are rather simple in regards to auto racing. If you have a functional water pump, a clean, unclogged radiator, and plenty of coolant running through the engine & radiator, cooling is rarely a concern. Gordon's radiator was clogged with rubber debris - allowing a lesser amount of air to get through the radiator - causing the engine to overheat. These cars do not have fans to push air through the rad at slow speeds, so how does one get more air to flow through the radiator to aid in cooling? By getting more air to go through the radiator. How would one get more air to flow through the radiator without the aid of a fan? By getting the car moving faster which in turn, will force more air through the radiator. Simple concept, huh? Maybe not. None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. |
"ion"? The poetic justice just keeps on coming...
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| Birds 'could have" flown out of your ass too. It's relatively clear that you have little or no knowledge as to the workings of a racing engine or cooling system. You ignore the painfully obvious & latch onto some bullshit, pie in the sky theory. I have real world knowledge, you string together some unrelated, non sensicle theories. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Kind of like a troll, only less informative. Good luck with your compression theory. Stick to wrenching engines, remember "lefty loosy, righty tighty." Work on improving sales. |
Imagine you not understanding what a machine shop does...
I doubt you could even read a micrometer.
I'll take the 4.5 a year, and I suggest that you work on making sure that
your retirement fund lasts to the end of your retirement years.
HAND
#72
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"Frank from Deeeetroit" <dadurwe... (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote My quote.Twenty five years, annual sales of over 4.5 million. If you are the best engine builder within 3000 miles of Philly, one would think your gross would be higher. 3000 miles of PITTSBURGH. (reading comprehension issues?) More poetic justice. I'll take the 4.5 mil a year VS.....How much does a retired policeman on a pension make a year? THAT, is a dick comment! |
You just showed your true colors.
BTW, why is your annual gross so low?
#73
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"Frank from Deeeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote Gordon's wasn't functioning due to a clogged radiator. Don't you watch the races? What other possible problem would cause the car to spew fluid at 55, and not at 185? Answer one question, at least. Did you read "if not damaged?" Backpedaling, aye? That is simply not the case. I'll give you that the engine develops more heat at speed than it does at idle, but that is not the point of argument. Have you ever seen a car overheating on the side of the road? What generally happens is that the car blows the radiator when parked and at idle due to the fact that the engine cannot pump enough coolant through the already overheating engine due to the low rpms & diminished volume of coolant running through the engine. What also happens is that hot air pockets form in the cooling passages of the engine and radiator when coolant is lost (remember the water vapor escaping from Gordon's overflow pipe when he slowed down?) The hot air causes the cast iron & aluminum to crack due to a condition called "super heating". It is common knowledge that temperatures in these air pockets have been known to exceed 1500 degrees Fahrenheit - temperatures that cause cast iron & aluminum to fail. Blah, blah, blah, high school auto shop stuff. Apparently you missed those classes. So why did Gordon's car overheat then? You claim it could be other causes......like what? Read and try to comprehend "if not damaged." You want me to comprehend your backpedaling? Been there, done that already. I am not reinventing the wheel here, just stating what actually happens. Ask any crewchief of a raceteam weather he wants an overheating engine running at race speed or at caution speed, and to the man, they would say they want the car running out there at speed where the maximum amount of air can be drawn through the radiator. My statement about compressed air is not a theory, it is taught in high school, and the reference to a P-51 fighter is an example of what I am talking about that was put together in the late 1930's, nothing new, simple to understand the concept. Understanding the concept isn't the issue, it's just that this concept doesn't apply to the discussion at hand here. Yes it does. Go to a race, use your pit pass to talk to the mechanics, they will tell you what they told me and what I have printed here. Name names, site reference quotes. They are telkling you that cars with clogged radiators cool better on pace laps? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Gimme a fucking break. telkling? Too much to drink this evening? Hmmm, watch out for pointing out typos, one may happen to you soon as a form of poetic justice... And btw, I would correct all of your spelling errors (not typos), but there are only 24 hours in the day. OK, Mr. "componant, Truck Seris, explaination, knowlege" boi? (and that's only scratching the surface...) Altitude means nothing to a race car, unless one is driving in Denver, speed and air pressure around a race car is what it is all about. Oh yes, remove a little bit of tape from the grill of a Cup car, and the 'at speed' air pressure will enter the grill opening with more volume allowing more air to reach the radiator. Again, Gordon's car had no more tape available to be removed. Using Gordon's situation as an example does nothing to bolster this theory. Gordon's situation is proof, he had a damaged cooling system for anyone one of several reasons. For example? Did youy see steam? There is a reason for the steam, any one of a number of reasons. "youy"? lol Poetic justice. "Einstein" is it? I own the largest heavy duty machine shop within a 3000 mile radius of Pittsburgh. We build everything from race engines, to 16 cylinder, 1200 hp Caterpillar diesel engines costing over 100K to rebuild, used in coal & heavy construction. I have over 25 years of experience in every aspect of engine building, machining, operation, and engineering. Your expertise on the subject is drawn from.....what? Aren't you a retired policeman? So, you wrench big engines and I am a 30 veteran retired policeman, nothing says you do good work or I did good work, your point? We do damned good work, otherwise my business wouldn't be in business. A Yogi Berra quote? My quote.Twenty five years, annual sales of over 4.5 million. If you are the best engine builder within 3000 miles of Philly, one would think your gross would be higher. 3000 miles of PITTSBURGH. (reading comprehension issues?) More poetic justice. I'll take the 4.5 mil a year VS.....How much does a retired policeman on a pension make a year? I have dealt with the after effects of overheating for decades - many times for externally clogged radiators (clogged with dirt, coal dust, rubber - it doesn't matter). Rebuild the engine, install a clean radiator.....problem solved. When the fans and water pumps are operational, the radiators are free of debris, and the cooling system holds sufficient coolant, these engines do not overheat. These engines don't have aerodynamically engineered pressure chambers. How do you suppose they still can cool these engines? Cup cars do. Next time you go to a race, use your pitpass, and look under the hood of a Cup car. There is a box in front of the radiator. The size of the box ranges from the small grill opening in the front to the size of the radiator. You have to see for yourself. This has what to do with the argument? You claim Gordon's car cooled more effectively with a clogged radiator at caution speed, this is due to the rad air box? You are delusional. Provide proof of this ridiculous claim. You, my friend, must see for your self, as no explaination of how a NASCAR cooling system will suit you. Gee whiz, you have yet to offer how exactly a race engine that is overheating cools more efficiently at pace lap speed, but then again, you *are* arguing for argument's sake anyway. Lack of answer noted. Go see for yourself, ask the mechanics in person and they will explain the cooling system to you as I have done. I'll ask Steve Letarte in person when I see him at Dover in early June. Pit pass in hand already. We'll both get a chuckle over your bs "compression theory"... I'll answer that one for you, with unrestricted airflow. My point about Einstein was to counter your comment about "Your opinion on engine cooling goes against all known data on the subject and breaks several laws of physics as well." Show me proof or remain unlearned about engine cooling and physics, no big deal. Gordon's radiator popped going into victory lane, not on the track. Too much heat, not enough cooling. There you go... Proof that what I said about a damaged cooling system. WHAT did you say about his damaged cooling system? Are you on some sort of medication I should be made aware of? Are you confusing me with another? Fuckwit, I was not there, nor am I privi to the exact reason why Gordo's cooling system had problems, but Stevie Wonder could see there was an issue with Gordo's cooling system, an issue caused by any one of a number of reasons. None of which you are capable of expanding on, I guess, huh? "Fuckwit"? Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Name calling: The last ditch effort of one who has been beaten down by reason. Drawing parallels between airplane and stock car engineering is akin to comparing a tricycle to a cruise ship. In the sense that a tricycle and a cruise boat are a means of transportation, they are the same. Both require thrust to overcome drag in order to move. And that's where the similarity ends, just as the similarity between an airplane and a racecar ends at the point where they are both means of transportation. Cup cars, Indy cars, F-1, Truck Seris, and a host of other race cars use aerodynamics to obtain free horse power. Aero involves engine air intake, brake, engine, driver cooling, and to stay gripped to the track. All works together. You have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Listen and learn. From you? My best friend is a police officer and he has yet to tell me anything I don't already know about engine operation. Did they have special classes at the police academy in Deeeeetroit about P51 cooling systems and how they relate to Na$car cooling systems? lol Cup teams always use wind tunnels to test their aero package. At the Cup level, everything is aero. Jr's crew got busted for using wing brackets that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage." The aero advantage that Jr had wasn't engine cooling related, btw. You are confused, Jr was busted for having an aerodynamic advantage. I didn't say that. Were you hit on the head when you were a cop? Oh, and who was suspended from the Daytona 500 for having hollow rear spoiler bolts that NASCAR deemed to "provide an aerodynamic advantage?" The aerodynamic advantage gained by the bolts was that they lowered the car and lessened the drag of the car at the superspeedway. The advantage was a *downforce* advantage. How that would have anything to do with cooling is laughable. Downforce is a componant of aerodynamics. Holy shit, without you telling me that, I would have never known.... *rolls eyes* Listen and learn. Yeah, "10-4". lol Sound like there may be a connection? Absolutely no connection to cooling issues. Isn't that what we're discussing here? These topics are discussed by every NASCAR race, every Sunday, common knowlege to even a rookie NASCAR fan. Perhaps you should pay more attention to these discussions, then. "Aero" discussions in Na$car are always related to *downforce*, not cooling. In your mind, yes, not so in the real world. YOUR real world? lol Cooling issues are rather simple in regards to auto racing. If you have a functional water pump, a clean, unclogged radiator, and plenty of coolant running through the engine & radiator, cooling is rarely a concern. Gordon's radiator was clogged with rubber debris - allowing a lesser amount of air to get through the radiator - causing the engine to overheat. These cars do not have fans to push air through the rad at slow speeds, so how does one get more air to flow through the radiator to aid in cooling? By getting more air to go through the radiator. How would one get more air to flow through the radiator without the aid of a fan? By getting the car moving faster which in turn, will force more air through the radiator. Simple concept, huh? Maybe not. None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. "ion"? The poetic justice just keeps on coming... Birds 'could have" flown out of your ass too. It's relatively clear that you have little or no knowledge as to the workings of a racing engine or cooling system. You ignore the painfully obvious & latch onto some bullshit, pie in the sky theory. I have real world knowledge, you string together some unrelated, non sensicle theories. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Kind of like a troll, only less informative. Good luck with your compression theory. Stick to wrenching engines, remember "lefty loosy, righty tighty." Work on improving sales. We work in tenths of thousandths. Imagine you not understanding what a machine shop does... I doubt you could even read a micrometer. I'll take the 4.5 a year, and I suggest that you work on making sure that your retirement fund lasts to the end of your retirement years. HAND |
Pittsburgh.
We build everything from race engines, to 16 cylinder. 1200 hp Caterpillar
diesel engines costing over 100K to rebuild, used in coal & heavy
construction.
I have over 25 years of experience in every aspect of engine building,
machining, operation, and engineering.
Your expertise on the subject is drawn from.....what?"
Your post, copied from 5-18 at 9:42pm. You are not making any money if you
are the largest shop within 3000 miles. Talk to your friend at Dover, he
will tell you what I have said and my guess you will not post back on this
topic. I have my tickets and hot pass for the June MIS race and will chat
with the people I know. BTW, I make a comfortable living on pension alone
and more income from my retail business, as well as teaching in a local
college with plenty of time to enjoy my toys and hobbies. Net income is
what the game is all about, gross sales does not mean anything. No
headaches for me. 'Nuff said.
#74
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On May 20, 11:05 pm, "Mike/Speeed" <speeedracerREMOV... (AT) verizon (DOT) net wrote: "Frank from Deeeetroit" <dadurwe... (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote My quote.Twenty five years, annual sales of over 4.5 million. If you are the best engine builder within 3000 miles of Philly, one would think your gross would be higher. 3000 miles of PITTSBURGH. (reading comprehension issues?) More poetic justice. I'll take the 4.5 mil a year VS.....How much does a retired policeman on a pension make a year? THAT, is a dick comment! You just showed your true colors. BTW, why is your annual gross so low? |
#75
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| Your post, copied from 5-18 at 9:42pm. You are not making any money if you are the largest shop within 3000 miles. |
4.5 mil in *net* sales isn't making money?
bwhahahaaaaaaa, OK.
Talk to your friend at Dover, he
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will tell you what I have said and my guess you will not post back on this topic. |
You have gone off on tangents in so many different directions, it is
difficult to believe that he would possibly say ANYTHING you have said
prior.
I'll post back when he tells me Gordon's rad was stuffed up with rubber, but
you'll ignore that anyway - considering your aversion to the truth.
I have my tickets and hot pass for the June MIS race and will chat
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with the people I know. BTW, I make a comfortable living on pension alone and more income from my retail business, as well as teaching in a local college with plenty of time to enjoy my toys and hobbies. Net income is what the game is all about, gross sales does not mean anything. |
I was speaking "net sales", bud.
Quoting gross sales is a waste of time.
I'm sure your retail business would really give me a run for my money, huh
slick?
No headaches for me. 'Nuff said.
"Nuff said"? Now?
You really should have quit before you even started.
#76
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None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. |
Dave Blaney David Reutimann, David Stremme, and Casey Mears say: "Hi"
Have any more inaccuracies to share?
#77
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| I was referring to "net sales". |
not surprising ............ they are a natural fit
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#78
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"Frank from Deeeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. Dave Blaney David Reutimann, David Stremme, and Casey Mears say: "Hi" Have any more inaccuracies to share? |
#79
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"Frank from Deeeetroit" <dadurweird (AT) voyager (DOT) net> wrote None of the other cars had such a severe cooling problem, Gordo's problem could have been elsewhere ion the cooling system. Dave Blaney David Reutimann, David Stremme, and Casey Mears say: "Hi" Have any more inaccuracies to share? |
#80
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"Mike/Speeed" <speeedracerREMOVE24 (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message news:vY6dna9b0NO2BdPbnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... . What does "a good aero package" have to do with cooling an engine? "A good aero package" allows a racecar to either stick to the track better, or move through the air more efficiently. It has nothing to do with cooling affiance. Not quite true - because these guys stick tape over the rad / grill openings to "enhance" aero characteristics. Closed grill ports > better aero reduced cooling. Of course, that is the case, but Gordon's car had all of the tape removed |
downforce than cooling. In fact, in the 18 years I have been watching
Na$car, I've never heard aerodynamics being discussed in regards to cooling
issues. I'm certain there is some amount of engineering put into these cars
relating to cooling, but with Na$car having a rule regarding practically
every nut, bolt, & washer put into these cars, there is likely little wiggle
room for drastically changing the dynamics of these systems.
When a crewchief says: "We have a good Aero package for this race", do you
think he is referring to the car's cooling system?
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Speaking of efficiency, airflow going through the radiator to cool the engine is far more efficient at 180 mph vs 55 mph. Not quite true. Airflow itself is not more efficient - but the cooling effect is more efficient. |
Airflow provides cooling.
More efficient airflow equals more efficient cooling.
More volume, more efficient.
We are saying the same thing here, it's that I should have used better
wordage to make my claim.
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All of the tape was removed from the grille on Gordon's car, so there was nothing else Letarte could do to help the overheating problems, hence, Gordon was told to stay out. Not quite true. They apparently could still "help' the over_heating problem by being at race speed. |
Thank you for re-making my point.
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You are arguing that Gordon's radiator was more efficient in cooling the car at pace lap speed than race speed. Are you sure about that claim ?? |
Frankee wrote: "Lower RPM's permit the coolant to remain in the radiator for
a longer period
of time. Longer amount of time spent in the radiator = more opportunity to
cool the fluid. " in reply to my statement: " Cup cars
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have no radiator fans, SO, cautions will cause an already overheating engine to overheat further." |
If so - I think I see the problem with the debate.
The problem is that I am discussing what actually happened to Gordon's car,
Frankee is trying to backpedal his way out of a stupid statement he made
based upon an incorrect use of a non-related, abstract theory.
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