Okay, here is the situation: Trucks are racing around the track when a truck
toward the back spins out. CAUTION COMES OUT.
Truck #2 (in the front of the pack) slows down for the caution.
Truck #3 either doesn't see the caution or just doesn't slow down and hits truck
#2 on the left rear spinning truck #2 out. (no damage and truck #2 doesn't hit
anyone or anything else).

Question: Why does truck #2 have to go to the end of the line? He didn't do
anything wrong. He was minding his own business and obeying the safety rules
when he was hit in the rear.

I thought when the caution came out you kept the position you were in when the
caution came.

NASCAR rules are confusing and in this case I think they suck.

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

Given that this is the day of the "timing loop", either truck #2 wasn't on
the lead lap, or it took him/her that long to correct their truck and fall
back in line (which should have been corrected by NASCAR if they were on the
lead lap, the yellow had flown, and the scoring system had locked him/her
into their position at the time of caution), OR they flat spotted their
tires and had to pit for fresh ones, which will put you back in the order if
few others pitted. Or, they pitted when the pits were still closed, which
nets you an EOLL penalty. If the wreck caused enough damage to truck #2,
NASCAR can black flag them to come in an fix the damage too.

I'd need a lot more information than the generalities you presented before I
could completely explain the deal, or agree with you that NASCAR screwed up,
either one.

If you're on the lead lap and don't draw some sort of penalty (failing to
slow for caution, passing under caution, etc), you *should* remain in the
position that the scoring loop system assigned you when the caution was
thrown. But this is NASCAR, and they do make the rules up on the fly
sometimes.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:45:47 GMT, "SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
wrote:

:->"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote in
:->news:l37fq196sragvb25hqj79phl442jjmb0cr (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...

:->> Okay, here is the situation: Trucks are racing around the track when a truck
:->> toward the back spins out. CAUTION COMES OUT.

:->> Truck #2 (in the front of the pack) slows down for the caution.
:->> Truck #3 either doesn't see the caution or just doesn't slow down and hits truck #2
:->> on the left rear spinning truck #2 out. (no damage and truck #2 doesn't hit
:->> anyone or anything else).

:->> Question: Why does truck #2 have to go to the end of the line? He didn't do
:->> anything wrong. He was minding his own business and obeying the safety rules
:->> when he was hit in the rear.


:->Given that this is the day of the "timing loop", either truck #2 wasn't on
:->the lead lap, or it took him/her that long to correct their truck and fall
:->back in line (which should have been corrected by NASCAR if they were on the
:->lead lap, the yellow had flown, and the scoring system had locked him/her
:->into their position at the time of caution),


Truck #2 was in the #2 position of the lead lap. Truck #2 never left the track
he was just spun 270 degrees. Immediately headed in the correct direction and
attempted to get back into the #2 position. NASCAR sent him to the rear.

:->OR they flat spotted their
:->tires and had to pit for fresh ones, which will put you back in the order if
:->few others pitted.


Truck #2 never left the track.


:->Or, they pitted when the pits were still closed, which
:->nets you an EOLL penalty.


Truck #2 never left the track. There were only a few laps to go.


:->If the wreck caused enough damage to truck #2,
:->NASCAR can black flag them to come in an fix the damage too.


VERY minor left rear fender damage to truck #2 and minor damage to right front
of truck #3.


:->If you're on the lead lap and don't draw some sort of penalty (failing to
:->slow for caution, passing under caution, etc), you *should* remain in the
:->position that the scoring loop system assigned you when the caution was
:->thrown.


It was truck #3 that did not slow down for the caution. NASCAR never said a
word to him!


:->But this is NASCAR, and they do make the rules up on the fly sometimes.

They sure do!! I am new to NASCAR but this 'make the rules as we go' crap is
turning me off of racing. Truck #2 had a VERY good chance of winning that race.

It is like this stupid speeding on pit road rule. Not that the rule itself is
stupid. There are lives at steak. But to go from FIRST to FOURTY-THIRD because
you drove SIX miles per hour over the limit!!!??? That seems a bit severe to
me. Especially when you are driving all the way to the right away from the pit
crews. I understand you HAVE to have a speeding rule but the penalty is too
much. Especially when you consider there are no speedometers. After driving 190
MPH, 45 MPH must seem like a crawl and very disorienting.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:45:47 GMT, "SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
wrote:


I probably should add that at the time the caution came out truck #2 was about 3
truck-lengths in front of truck #3 (who was in the third position on the lead
lap).

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote


Which race was this, and who was the #2 truck you're referring to? I'd be
interested to track down the specific info so I can follow your explaination
a tad better. It may be that the caution didn't immediately come out, and
the field isn't "frozen" until it does.

Not to nit-pick, but they only run 36 trucks in CTS races.


speeding rule but the penalty is too
Well, it may appear severe, but the rules and the punishment in regards to
pit road speeds need to be in place and strictly enforced. Too many people
were getting hurt on pit road, even with "basic" pit road speeds and
informal enforcement. The drivers ask for, and got, a "black and white"
system so there would be no "grey" area anymore. With the timing loops in
place, a speeder is flagged by the computer system now, and is punished
accordingly, as it should be IMO. They needed to take humans out of that
particular system if it was going to be used at all. With the "timing lines"
they used to use, you could speed like hell out of your pit box to the next
timing line, since the time in your "zone" was so long due to the pit stop
(for that matter, you could "speed into" your pit space once you were in the
right timing zone). You add in the 13-16 seconds for a pit stop, and pure
timing says you only went 10mph through your "zone" (for example), and gave
drivers that fudge factor to abuse, which they did, and was causing more
problems than it was helping.


And these guys are pros. Yes, driving race speeds most of the day and having
to deal with pit road slowdowns is tough, but these cats get paid millions
of $$ to be the pros that they are, they can handle it. And they don't need
speedos, tachs work just fine with these cars, as the gearing is a known
every time the car is running, and with tires being a specific size, giving
uniform/consistent rollout numbers, the team engineers can usually tell them
what "45mph" (or whatever it happens to be) is in RPMs, usually within 25
RPM. Even so, NASCAR splits the field into 2 groups during the parade laps
so that everyone in the field can both see and match speeds with, a pace
vehicle. This is done in part to help the drivers nail down their tach
number at the given pit road speed, prior to the event going green. It's not
really that hard.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:41:34 GMT, "SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
wrote:

I wish I could remember. It was one of the last five of the season though.
As a matter of fact, it might very well have been the last race. Alzheimers is a
terrible thing!


Well ---- I was kind of mixing NASCAR and CTS wasn't I. I just assumed it would
be picked up on that I was then talking about NASCAR in general seeing I was
talking about their rules.



I understand that as I said but what is the prize money difference between first
and last? That seems like a pretty big fine for 6 MPH over the limit.


:->This is done in part to help the drivers nail down their tach
:->number at the given pit road speed, prior to the event going green. It's not
:->really that hard.


If it is so easy can one assume the drivers who do speed are doing it on
purpose?

'Let's see now. I am only in second place, so, if I just speed off of pit road I
can get out onto the track first and then be in first place. That darn
electronic gadget will never catch ME.'

Doesn't sound logical to me. But, I am still learning about NASCAR and the
drivers.

Paul wrote:

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

LOL! Heard that. One of this season's last few races, check.

You're still "mixing" stuff up, lol. NASCAR is the sanctioning body over the
Nextel Cup Series, the Busch Series AND the Craftsman Truck Series. I was
just helping you to realize that the latter only runs 36 trucks instead of
43 cars like the Cup and Busch races have in them. But, they're all "NASCAR"
series, it doesn't just apply to the Cup series.

The thing is, rules are rules. The pit road speed limit, mandatory entrance
and exit points, pit-out blend lines* and all facets of the race rules per
event are covered ad nauseum during the driver's meeting immediately
preceeding said events. That said, these guys KNOW they're on the computer
on pit road, and KNOW they will get busted for speeding now. Just like in
every other sport on the planet, it is up to them to adhere to the rules,
whether it's 1 mph or 20 mph over the pit road speed limit, they're
responsible

*The "blend line" is the area on the track where a driver is to come back up
onto the track after a pit stop. This area is designated as such to prevent
cars from immediately coming out on the track from the pits, in front of
speeding cars in the cases of green flag stops, and possibly causing a major
pileup. Drivers can be penalized for not observing and properly adhering to,
the blend line, especially when the infraction occurs during a green flag
run. (The blend line is the reason they enter a "typical" track at T2 from
the pits, and is usually a nice solid yellow line to indicate "no blend" and
either no line or dashed or shaded yellow lines immediately following the
solid line to indicate "ok to merge")

No. It's competition, it's the rules, and it's up to the driver to control
his emotions and feet good enough to adhere to the rules.

Yes it will. There is a transponder bolted to the frame near the back of
your car, and it crosses buried electronic "timing loops" all the way around
the track, including pit road. If you go 1 mph over the speed limit, it will
know. This is the exact same transponder that NASCAR uses to reset the
running order after/during a caution, and is what the "scoring" (running
order) is tracked by. And, when it comes down to it, is the way they
determine "who won" when a race finishes with competitors literally nose to
nose.

It is quite logical. These guys *can* get their cars under control, and for
those that don't, a penalty lies in wait. NASCAR came up with the rule, came
up with a way to track the speeds, and literally threw the gauntlet down -
Speed, and you will get caught AND punished. That's EXACTLY what the
driver's ask for in newer rules, more black and white, less grey. So I can't
cast stones at NASCAR in this case, because they delivered exactly what the
teams and drivers asked for.


What you NEED to see is the last race in the 2004 CTS series. Ted Musgrave
"passed to the left" on a late race restart soas to avoid hitting someone in
the rear, caused by someone in front not restarting in sync, and bunching up
the field behind them. He was penalized a lap (IIRC) and it cost him the
Championship. He avoided a wreck, but rules again are rules, and passing on
the left before the S/F line on a restart is against the rules. Looked like
a harsh call, and I felt bad for him, but apparently NASCAR has no provision
in that rule for avoiding a wreck and being able to pass on the left in that
case...This is the kind of complexity I mean when I say I need to know the
"whole" story with your CTS race in question, before we can pick apart what
happened, and why.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:41:24 GMT, "SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
wrote:


:->> >Well, it may appear severe, but the rules and the punishment in regards to
:->> >pit road speeds need to be in place and strictly enforced.


I am all for rules. I am of German descent after all. :-) But the penalty seems
too harsh.


:->The thing is, rules are rules.


Absolutely correct. But penalties should fit the infraction.


:->> 'Let's see now. I am only in second place, so, if I just speed off of pit road I
:->> can get out onto the track first and then be in first place. That darn
:->> electronic gadget will never catch ME.'

:->Yes it will.


YES! It WILL. and that is why I don't understand how a driver could be so
careless as to not be VERY mindful of his speed. If I were a driver I would be
concentrating so hard on my pit road speed that I would probably drive right
past me pit box! :-)


:->What you NEED to see is the last race in the 2004 CTS series. Ted Musgrave
:->"passed to the left" on a late race restart soas to avoid hitting someone in
:->the rear, caused by someone in front not restarting in sync, and bunching up
:->the field behind them. He was penalized a lap (IIRC) and it cost him the
:->Championship. He avoided a wreck, but rules again are rules, and passing on
:->the left before the S/F line on a restart is against the rules. Looked like
:->a harsh call, and I felt bad for him, but apparently NASCAR has no provision
:->in that rule for avoiding a wreck and being able to pass on the left in that
:->case...


Now there you go. A man lost the CHAMPIONSHIP because he tried to avoid an
accident that might have cost someone their life or severe injury. What a
stupid punishment! Couldn't NASCAR have praised Musgrave for avoiding the
accident and then told him to get back behind the car he passed? Wouldn't that
have been a more suitable response? If he did it on purpose I could accept the
punishment he got but he didn't do it on purpose.

The more you teach me (and I very much appreciate your time, willingness and
knowledge) about NASCAR the more I am turned off by the whole thing. Who wants
to sit through a whole season of rooting for a driver only to have that driver
lose the CHAMPIONSHIP because he AVOIDED get into an accident that may have
killed or maimed someone? Or, because he drove 6MPH (WALKING SPEED!!) over the
speed limit he should lose the CHAMPIONSHIP!?!?! A WHOLE YEAR of fine driving
gone down the drain for NOT killing someone!!! Nonsense! Heil NASCAR! NOT!

Like my mother always tought me, "If you don't like the rules, don't play the
game." (Or watch in this case.) I just don't understand how the rest of you who
are big, long-time fans can tolerate this nonsense.

Like I said, I am all for rules. Rules are there for a good reason (except for
the impound rule...and...and...and...) usually but I do not believe the
punishment always fits the crime.

How quickly I would stop watching the Patriots or Colts or college football if
there was a rule that said, 'if you get more than two penalties you forfit the
game'.

"Paul" <ME (AT) MYISP (DOT) COM> wrote

Consider this. Yes, it cost the person you originally were discussing, say
2nd place money compared to 36th place money. However, the driver typically
only gets 40-45% of their "winnings" and are paid a handsome salary on top
of that. "That" driver, isn't hurting and likely won't miss the few thousand
dollars difference. I imagine that he/she was more angry at the finishing
position than the money.

But is it too harsh? Sometimes it appears so, nowadays, but you just have to
know that the sport is 55 years old now, and for the first 50 years, they
weren't harsh enough IMO. They had to then get super strict to get the
teams' attention.

That sir, is subjective, and is why some people follow the sport. Just for
the controversy.

Actually, you get "used to it". Not that I've wheeled a Cup car in
competition at all, but I did actually "sim race" for over 5 years. Several
nights a week, nearly 52 weeks a year (not including practice). Hitting your
RPM target (soas not to speed) becomes second nature after a while. I still
dabble in sim racing (though the best sim on the market lost the NASCAR
rights after 2003) and pitting is still fairly easy for me. It's just
another aspect that you learn, and basically never forget.

And, you don't see it very often, but teams (drivers included) will actually
practice getting to their pit stall once they have picked it (after
qualifying). It isn't shown on TV much, but some of the top drivers even
still come into the pits several times during practice, to "find" their pit
stall after coming off the track, so that race day is *not* the first time
they do it that particular weekend. And of course during the race, their
crew chief counts down the stalls over the radio until the driver can see
his target, and they also put up "tape" numbers on the outside pit wall
opposite their stall so drivers can also see "their car number" up ahead on
the wall to the right, as they make their approach. And they also have those
pitboards on poles, usually with the car number on it, that they wave up and
down, right at the point where they want the nose of the car to be when the
car stops.

Here we agree. NASCAR should have some contingencies for special cases, but
they don't. That call irritated me, and I'm not even technically a Musgrave
fan. But without the law, we'd have lawlessness, and where would the sport
be then?

Don't be. NASCAR overall is no worse than umps and referees from the stick
and ball sports. All sporting officials blow calls on occasion, and NASCAR
is no different.

You have to consider the circumstances. It was a restart, which means they
were only going 55 mph most likely. Dangerous? Indeed, in a neighborhood
maybe. On a race track though? Hell, there are drivers in Cup that have golf
carts that can go 55mph. You have to consider relavent factors, which in
racing, covers a lot IMO.



Now for the flip side. If there had actually been a "whole year of fine
driving" in place, finishing last would not have cost him the title. He'd
have been up by enough points to have not to needed to worry about it....He
was in a tedious position, and didn't capitalize on the situation, it's
racing, it happens. Matter of fact, I'd say less than half the time they run
a race is it that the "best car" actually wins the event. Life isn't fair,
and apparently neither are the racing Gods at times.

Because there are bigger issues out there: schedule realignment, a points
"Chase" that wasn't needed for a single solitary thing except to help a
struggling network attempt to compete with the NFL, Cars of Tomorrow (and
their eventual effect on the racing and manufacturer support), network
packages, tire contract ending after 2007, new tire and testing rules and
their effect on small teams, team car limits, etc.

Unfortunately, that's life. Very seldom outside of true criminal law and
order, does the punishment fit the crime. (Like: a speeding ticket
conviction costing you higher insurance premiums for 3 years!?...)

That's aweful extreme. I mean being sent to the back is only extreme when
there isn't enough time to get back to the front (let's face it, pitting
"out of sequence" can send you to the back as well). If this truck you
originally were discussing was really good enough to be hanging in the #2 or
#3 position, given enough laps, he could've gotten back up there if all else
was equal. His (or her) case this time was simply piss poor timing. And
NASCAR calls infractions when and where they happen, regardless of the laps
remaining...in other words, the rules don't change in the "last 2 minutes"
or whatever like some stick and ball sports may do. That's why it is so
competitive, every lap, from lap 1 to the white flag lap. That's what makes
motorsports in general very exciting to follow, since it literally "ain't
over, 'till it's over".