RCR rims, NASACAR SAYS IT DIDN'T HAPPEN

#11

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Speeed Racer!" <wedontneedanysteekingreplies (AT) whodat (DOT) org> wrote in message
news:2e-dnRyuv-S-sZLYnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com...

The story wasn't about drilling, it was about a .003" of an inch laser
cut slot right at the bead just beyond the portion of the bead where the
tire seals to the rim, which could easily allow pressure to slowly vent
off as the pressures increased. There would be no fire risk because the
slot is on the outside of the rim and the nitrogen would dissipate
quickly. Also the amount of nitrogen vented would be a very minimum
amount and vented over the entirety of a run.
Additionally, if the nitrogen is such a fire hazard, why don't the tires
explode into flames when they blow out?
The more you think about it, the more plausible it seems.
Do you actually think that Dilner would jeopardize his entire career over
some bs story?
Childress wouldn't chance it? Not for the first time he wouldn't, but if
he had success before (like they haven't been successful lately), what
would stop him?
Connect the dots, it's just that simple.

Nitrogen in inert and does not catch fire. It is often used in the
petrochemical industry as a "blanket" of inert gas over a flammable liquid
for safety. As far as "bleeding out the air", that is ridiculous. The
pressure will increase in a tire until the running temperature is
stabilized. At that point, because of the "laser cuts", the pressure
would then drop. The risk is of the tire going flat. There would be no
way to control that. Bleeder valves work as pressure relief valve and
reseat when the set pressure is achieved.

While I do agree with you on the non-flammable properties of Nitrogen, I

disagree that a .003" slot placed properly on the rim would not allow air
pressure to be relieved.
If the slot was placed closely to the area of the rim where the tire seats
on the rim, the additional air pressure would pull the tire away from the
rim uncovering the slot and allowing air (or Nitrogen) to slowly bleed off
until the bead of the tire is again seated across the slot, thus producing a
seal. A one way valve if you will.
While my engineering experience doesn't cover this type of phenomenon, I do
believe that the knowledge to produce such a mechanism is possible.
Do I believe that this is the scenario in this case? Probably not. Do I
believe that there is a possibility (ever so slightly) of this happening?
Yes.

#12

"Crusader" <cru357 (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

I'll be The First!
While watching Victory Lane, i noticed the #29 car was still in
inspection as they left the air (1 hour later).
I mentioned to a friend that it seems the #29 might have discrepancies
since usually post-race inspection takes much less than 1 hour.
I can't believe NA$CAr will once again whitewash a potential violation.
Apparently N refuses to take a win away ever since they did it once
vs Ricky Rudd at Sears Point.

Considering all the recent past serious rule violations
surrounding RCR (& their sudden resurgence), i smell a conspiracy!
CRU
This can explain the phenomenal qualifying performance the RCR cars have

been achieving lately.

#13

"SimDriver" <NR2003.is.the (AT) best (DOT) sim.net> wrote in news:T2HPg.13882$xQ1.17
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

Quote:

"Crusader" <cru357 (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:4n8gncF97qklU1 (AT) individual (DOT) net...

I'll be The First!
While watching Victory Lane, i noticed the #29 car was still in
inspection as they left the air (1 hour later).
I mentioned to a friend that it seems the #29 might have discrepancies
since usually post-race inspection takes much less than 1 hour.
I can't believe NA$CAr will once again whitewash a potential
violation.
Apparently N refuses to take a win away ever since they did it once
vs Ricky Rudd at Sears Point.

Considering all the recent past serious rule violations
surrounding RCR (& their sudden resurgence), i smell a conspiracy!
CRU
This can explain the phenomenal qualifying performance the RCR cars
have
been achieving lately.

As the rim gets hotter the metal expands allowing the bead crevice to
widen thus more pressure is released at the uppermost temps. Pretty far
fetched but it passes the smell test. Now for the real test. How did the
crew handle all the pitts. New tires at every stop or did they push the
envelope occasionally.
If NASCAR decided to let it slide, they now have to defend their honor at
all costs. OTH if it's all BS, little more will be discussed about it.

---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0637-2, 09/15/2006

#14

"Speeed Racer!" <wedontneedanysteekingreplies (AT) whodat (DOT) org> wrote

Quote:

While I do agree with you on the non-flammable properties of Nitrogen, I
disagree that a .003" slot placed properly on the rim would not allow air
pressure to be relieved.
If the slot was placed closely to the area of the rim where the tire seats
on the rim, the additional air pressure would pull the tire away from the
rim uncovering the slot and allowing air (or Nitrogen) to slowly bleed off
until the bead of the tire is again seated across the slot, thus producing
a seal. A one way valve if you will.
While my engineering experience doesn't cover this type of phenomenon, I
do believe that the knowledge to produce such a mechanism is possible.
Do I believe that this is the scenario in this case? Probably not. Do I
believe that there is a possibility (ever so slightly) of this happening?
Yes.

How, then, would you control the pressure in the tire? There would be no
effective way to control just how much pressure was bled off with this kind
of set-up. When a change in tire pressure of as little as 1/4 psi can
seriously effect handling, I don't think that any team, especially teams
that hire engineers, would send a car out with this kind of arrangement and
"hope" that the right amount of pressure would bleed off. That is, of
course, assuming that the tire would reseat. It is my experience in crewing
on race cars (one of my main duties is and has been tires and tire pressure)
that the last thing I want on a tire is a leak in the bead. I don't like it
in a short race (like we run) and would certainly NOT consider it in a long
race.

Also think of the mechanics. How would that tire suddenly seat across the
slot? The physics just don't work. But reporters, for the most part,
aren't engineers. I am.

Carey in Manvel

#15

"SimDriver" <NR2003.is.the (AT) best (DOT) sim.net> wrote

Quote:

"Crusader" <cru357 (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:4n8gncF97qklU1 (AT) individual (DOT) net...

I'll be The First!
While watching Victory Lane, i noticed the #29 car was still in
inspection as they left the air (1 hour later).
I mentioned to a friend that it seems the #29 might have discrepancies
since usually post-race inspection takes much less than 1 hour.
I can't believe NA$CAr will once again whitewash a potential violation.
Apparently N refuses to take a win away ever since they did it once
vs Ricky Rudd at Sears Point.

Considering all the recent past serious rule violations
surrounding RCR (& their sudden resurgence), i smell a conspiracy!
CRU
This can explain the phenomenal qualifying performance the RCR cars have
been achieving lately.

what is so phenomenal about their qual. performance?
Loudon #29 1st...#31 22nd
Richmond #29 5th... #31 2nd
Cali. #29 15th...#31 7th
Bristol. #29 7th...#31 2nd
Michigan #29 5th...#31 1st
Watkins Glenn #29 7th...#31 16th
Indy #29 10th...#31 1st
Pocono #29 12th...#31 6th

this really doens't sound too phenomenal to me. to get to phenomenal, they
would each (including the 07 of Bowyer) have to be achieving the results
Ryan Newman had a few years ago.

mike...........

#16

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Speeed Racer!" <wedontneedanysteekingreplies (AT) whodat (DOT) org> wrote:

While I do agree with you on the non-flammable properties of Nitrogen, I
disagree that a .003" slot placed properly on the rim would not allow air
pressure to be relieved.
If the slot was placed closely to the area of the rim where the tire
seats on the rim, the additional air pressure would pull the tire away
from the rim uncovering the slot and allowing air (or Nitrogen) to slowly
bleed off until the bead of the tire is again seated across the slot,
thus producing a seal. A one way valve if you will.
While my engineering experience doesn't cover this type of phenomenon, I
do believe that the knowledge to produce such a mechanism is possible.
Do I believe that this is the scenario in this case? Probably not. Do I
believe that there is a possibility (ever so slightly) of this happening?
Yes.

How, then, would you control the pressure in the tire? There would be no
effective way to control just how much pressure was bled off with this
kind of set-up. When a change in tire pressure of as little as 1/4 psi
can seriously effect handling, I don't think that any team, especially
teams that hire engineers, would send a car out with this kind of
arrangement and "hope" that the right amount of pressure would bleed off.

I believe that if this is actually happening, it would have been under
development and testing for years.
I'm sure a physicist could crunch the numbers to get a relatively accurate
measure as to how it could work, but actual testing (a great deal of
testing) would be necessary after the initial developmental stages.
If RCR is using this device, it wouldn't have been done without a great deal
of time and money being invested.
And excuse me if I'm wrong about this, but haven't the guys at RCR had some
tire issues (not blowing up, but tires going down) from time to time this
year and last for that matter? Perhaps that was part of the learning curve.

That is, of

Quote:

course, assuming that the tire would reseat. It is my experience in
crewing on race cars (one of my main duties is and has been tires and tire
pressure) that the last thing I want on a tire is a leak in the bead. I
don't like it in a short race (like we run) and would certainly NOT
consider it in a long race.

Also think of the mechanics. How would that tire suddenly seat across the
slot?

It wouldn't be sudden, it would be gradual. Keep in mind, we are talking
about a .003" wide slot of unspecified length.
Another thought just hit me. What if this slot wasn't designed as a valve,
and is being used as a constant bleed off device?
If it is possible to crunch the numbers to determine how much air pressure
is generated over a run based on temperature and starting pressure, could
you not design a device that bleeds a specific amount of pressure constantly
to keep tire pressure at a somewhat constant pressure throughout an average
run?
It wouldn't be a great deal of air expended as pressures rise gradually with
the rising tire temperatures.
This isn't possible?

The physics just don't work. But reporters, for the most part,

Quote:

aren't engineers. I am.

Reporters wouldn't be the ones developing this device.
Engineers and physicists would.

#17

"JerseyMike" <clamdigger724 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"SimDriver" <NR2003.is.the (AT) best (DOT) sim.net> wrote in message
news:T2HPg.13882$xQ1.17 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net...

"Crusader" <cru357 (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:4n8gncF97qklU1 (AT) individual (DOT) net...

I'll be The First!
While watching Victory Lane, i noticed the #29 car was still in
inspection as they left the air (1 hour later).
I mentioned to a friend that it seems the #29 might have discrepancies
since usually post-race inspection takes much less than 1 hour.
I can't believe NA$CAr will once again whitewash a potential violation.
Apparently N refuses to take a win away ever since they did it once
vs Ricky Rudd at Sears Point.

Considering all the recent past serious rule violations
surrounding RCR (& their sudden resurgence), i smell a conspiracy!
CRU
This can explain the phenomenal qualifying performance the RCR cars have
been achieving lately.

what is so phenomenal about their qual. performance?
Loudon #29 1st...#31 22nd
Richmond #29 5th... #31 2nd
Cali. #29 15th...#31 7th
Bristol. #29 7th...#31 2nd
Michigan #29 5th...#31 1st
Watkins Glenn #29 7th...#31 16th
Indy #29 10th...#31 1st
Pocono #29 12th...#31 6th

this really doens't sound too phenomenal to me. to get to phenomenal,
they
would each (including the 07 of Bowyer) have to be achieving the results
Ryan Newman had a few years ago.

Considering the fact that Burton couldn't qualify in the top 10
practically the entire time he drove for Roush, I'd say his qualifying
efforts this season would be nothing short of a miracle, or maybe it's
just an engineering marvel...

#18

"Speeed Racer!" <wedontneedanysteekingreplies (AT) whodat (DOT) org> wrote

Quote:

"SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:nlEPg.30754$Md4.4238 (AT) tornado (DOT) southeast.rr.com...

"Crusader" <cru357 (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:4n8gncF97qklU1 (AT) individual (DOT) net...
"JerseyMike" <clamdigger724 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:4JDPg.177382$5i3.103091 (AT) bgtnsc04-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net...
from Jaysaki:
http://jayski.com/cupnews.htm#myprints
UPDATE: Race winner Kevin Harvick and his teammate, Jeff Burton, did
not
have any problems in post race tech Sunday night at Loudon. Late
Sunday
night, it was reported that the Richard Childress Racing teams had
manipulated their rims to act as a bleeder valve to release air
pressure
from the rim. According to NASCAR however, the issue of the rims
never
surfaced during post race tech. "We've been checking valves and valve
stems
for about 4 months now," said Jim Hunter Vice President of Corporate
Communications for NASCAR said Monday. "What it was, was one reporter
trying
to make something that wasn't there. Then another reporter went on TV
and
reported it as fact, when it was actually totally untrue. It was one
reporter's unsubstantiated fantasy,"(Cupscene.com)

AND The following is a statement from Richard Childress, president
and
CEO
of Richard Childress Racing (RCR), regarding allegations in the media
after
the Sept. 19 NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series race at New Hampshire
International
Speedway that two of RCR's teams had manipulated the rules: "Reports
in
the
media, specifically on SPEED TV, that one or more of our NEXTEL Cup
Series
teams was found by NASCAR to be manipulating the rules yesterday at
New
Hampshire International Speedway are false and misleading. Our cars
passed
post-race inspection and officials at NASCAR assured us last night
and
again
today that no one from RCR was told at any time not to bring a part
back
to
the race track. The reported events and conversations did not happen.
Our
focus remains on two of our teams competing for the championship and
the
other finishing as high in the points as possible.(RCR PR)(9-18-2006)

was RCR cheating.......I GUESS NOT! who will the first to say maybe
NASACAR is covering it up.

mike.........

I'll be The First!
While watching Victory Lane, i noticed the #29 car was still in
inspection as they left the air (1 hour later).
I mentioned to a friend that it seems the #29 might have discrepancies
since usually post-race inspection takes much less than 1 hour.
I can't believe NA$CAr will once again whitewash a potential violation.
Apparently N refuses to take a win away ever since they did it once
vs Ricky Rudd at Sears Point.

Considering all the recent past serious rule violations
surrounding RCR (& their sudden resurgence), i smell a conspiracy!
CRU

LOL! I would jump right on the fringe theory with you Cru, but I am
decent
with the technical stuff, though not a certified rocket scientist. That
said, I don't see how they could drill rims, tires, inner liners (which
aren't run at Loudon anyway IIRC) or any part of the rotating tire
assembly
and have it actually work as described. There would literally need to be
a
hardware one-way bleeder valve somewhere for it to actually work - lest
we
forget, they don't fill these tires with "air" to begin with , they fill
them with nitrogen - so a barrior between the "air" and the internal
nitrogen must be maintaned for the tires to react over the length of a
run
with any sort of predictability. Recall: They do this since all "air"
has
a
degree of water (H2O) in it and isn't pure O2. Nitrogen doesn't contain
H2O,
is more stable when compressed/contained than pure O2 (Think: Apollo 1),
and
expands with increasing temperature at a more uniform rate.

Otherwise (if they "did" drill or otherwise modify the rims), the 29/31
teams would've been playing with fire and greatly increasing their risk
for
a blowout or otherwise flat tire in Chase Race 1, which I wouldn't think
Childress would want to do in a year where his teams appear to have
actually
turned a corner, so to speak.

The story wasn't about drilling, it was about a .003" of an inch laser cut
slot right at the bead just beyond the portion of the bead where the tire
seals to the rim, which could easily allow pressure to slowly vent off as
the pressures increased. There would be no fire risk because the slot is
on
the outside of the rim and the nitrogen would dissipate quickly. Also the
amount of nitrogen vented would be a very minimum amount and vented over
the
entirety of a run.

Actually, a "hole" or "slot" without a valve would let all the "air" out
with little control, over the course of time.

Quote:

Additionally, if the nitrogen is such a fire hazard, why don't the tires
explode into flames when they blow out?

Read it again, I said O2 was a fire hazard and that nitrogen was more
stable.

Quote:

The more you think about it, the more plausible it seems.
Do you actually think that Dilner would jeopardize his entire career over
some bs story?

Yes, if it were a "scoop".

Quote:

Childress wouldn't chance it? Not for the first time he wouldn't, but if
he
had success before (like they haven't been successful lately), what would
stop him?

The fact that your theory about a small hole just bleeding off air beeing
wrong. It would bleed off all the "air" in the tire without a valve of some
sort in place to stop the bleeding once the pressure got to where the CC or
whomever wanted.

Quote:

Connect the dots, it's just that simple.

I did, and you didn't see the picture it made.

#19

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Speeed Racer!" <wedontneedanysteekingreplies (AT) whodat (DOT) org> wrote in message
news:2e-dnRyuv-S-sZLYnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com...

The story wasn't about drilling, it was about a .003" of an inch laser
cut
slot right at the bead just beyond the portion of the bead where the
tire
seals to the rim, which could easily allow pressure to slowly vent off
as
the pressures increased. There would be no fire risk because the slot is
on the outside of the rim and the nitrogen would dissipate quickly. Also
the amount of nitrogen vented would be a very minimum amount and vented
over the entirety of a run.
Additionally, if the nitrogen is such a fire hazard, why don't the tires
explode into flames when they blow out?
The more you think about it, the more plausible it seems.
Do you actually think that Dilner would jeopardize his entire career
over
some bs story?
Childress wouldn't chance it? Not for the first time he wouldn't, but if
he had success before (like they haven't been successful lately), what
would stop him?
Connect the dots, it's just that simple.

Nitrogen in inert and does not catch fire. It is often used in the
petrochemical industry as a "blanket" of inert gas over a flammable liquid
for safety. As far as "bleeding out the air", that is ridiculous. The
pressure will increase in a tire until the running temperature is
stabilized. At that point, because of the "laser cuts", the pressure
would
then drop. The risk is of the tire going flat. There would be no way to
control that. Bleeder valves work as pressure relief valve and reseat
when
the set pressure is achieved.

Carey in Manvel

Right on Carey. I didn't think I could make it any plainer. Guess I have to
remember the audience on occasion...

#20

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:nlEPg.30754$Md4.4238 (AT) tornado (DOT) southeast.rr.com...

LOL! I would jump right on the fringe theory with you Cru, but I am
decent
with the technical stuff, though not a certified rocket scientist. That
said, I don't see how they could drill rims, tires, inner liners (which
aren't run at Loudon anyway IIRC) or any part of the rotating tire
assembly
and have it actually work as described. There would literally need to be
a
hardware one-way bleeder valve somewhere for it to actually work - lest
we
forget, they don't fill these tires with "air" to begin with , they fill
them with nitrogen - so a barrior between the "air" and the internal
nitrogen must be maintaned for the tires to react over the length of a
run
with any sort of predictability. Recall: They do this since all "air"
has
a
degree of water (H2O) in it and isn't pure O2. Nitrogen doesn't contain
H2O,
is more stable when compressed/contained than pure O2 (Think: Apollo 1),
and
expands with increasing temperature at a more uniform rate.

What we call "air" is largely nitrogen. Only a little over 20% is oxygen.
The rest is CO2, water vapor (already mentioned) and other gasses. The
prime reason for using nitrogen in the tires is basic physics. If the gas
is known and pure, the expansion rate and increase in pressure is
predictable and reliable. And, yes, as you stated, more uniform. The big
deal, though is the predictabilty. Using air, the expansion is the sum of
the different rates of the component gasses. At any given time and place,
this percentage is different and hard to predict. Moisture being but one
part of the mix. Any pure gas could be used, but nitrogen i the most
plentiful, inert and easiest to produce and store. And, yes, it is dry.

I think you clarified just what I was trying to say there Carey. I admitted
to not being a rocket scientist because I know basically what I was trying
to say, even if it didn't come out exactly correct. I know they use nitrogen
for its relative stablility, inertness (if that's a word) and its
availability. Nitrogen is also what drives the impact wrenches that the tire
changers use on pit road.

Quote:

Otherwise (if they "did" drill or otherwise modify the rims), the 29/31
teams would've been playing with fire and greatly increasing their risk
for
a blowout or otherwise flat tire in Chase Race 1, which I wouldn't think
Childress would want to do in a year where his teams appear to have
actually
turned a corner, so to speak.

Who ever thought that drilling the rims (or laser cutting) would make the
tires/rims act as bleeder valves (that is what we called them in sprint
car
racing) doesn't understand how they would work. It does make a good story
to the less technical folks, though.

That's what was getting me. A slot or hole, without some sort of
pressure-actuated cutoff valve, is a effectively a HOLE in the dang tire.
Pressure build up or no, the "air" would literally bleed out until the tire
was flat. There has to be a cutoff "device" somewhere in this equation for
the whole thing to work. Likely something in the 50-60psi range, depending
on the car's setup. Maybe lower, I am not that familiar with the current GY
compounds. Back in the "older" days of the late 90s and early 2000s, about
60 PSI cold was the max tire pressure recommend by GY - and they only went
that high at the plate tracks to decrease the tires' rolling resistence.

Quote:

Carey in Manvel