RCR rims, NASACAR SAYS IT DIDN'T HAPPEN

#21

In article <4JDPg.177382$5i3.103091 (AT) bgtnsc04-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net>,
clamdigger724 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com says...

Quote:

from Jaysaki:
http://jayski.com/cupnews.htm#myprints

UPDATE: Race winner Kevin Harvick and his teammate, Jeff Burton, did not
have any problems in post race tech Sunday night at Loudon.

Who cares. As if NASCAR would do anything about it anyway. Once you're locked
in to the chase the most they'll do to you is fine you some chump change.

#22

"Michael E" <racingfast (AT) anycost (DOT) org> wrote

Quote:

I believe that if this is actually happening, it would have been under
development and testing for years.
I'm sure a physicist could crunch the numbers to get a relatively accurate
measure as to how it could work, but actual testing (a great deal of
testing) would be necessary after the initial developmental stages.
If RCR is using this device, it wouldn't have been done without a great
deal of time and money being invested.
And excuse me if I'm wrong about this, but haven't the guys at RCR had
some tire issues (not blowing up, but tires going down) from time to time
this year and last for that matter? Perhaps that was part of the learning
curve.

There are too many variables. The tire and the bead are also under changing
and variable loads. To compromise that seal would be impractical.

Quote:

It wouldn't be sudden, it would be gradual. Keep in mind, we are talking
about a .003" wide slot of unspecified length.
Another thought just hit me. What if this slot wasn't designed as a valve,
and is being used as a constant bleed off device?
If it is possible to crunch the numbers to determine how much air pressure
is generated over a run based on temperature and starting pressure, could
you not design a device that bleeds a specific amount of pressure
constantly to keep tire pressure at a somewhat constant pressure
throughout an average run?
It wouldn't be a great deal of air expended as pressures rise gradually
with the rising tire temperatures.
This isn't possible?

Without a seating surface or some other devise installed on the tire, this
could not be designed as a valve. You could crunch the numbers, but once
the tire is up to temperature, any loss of pressure would not be made up
since the temperatures would be fairly steady. These guys are running with
a fairly small amount of tire pressure to begin with. As I said, when just
1/4 psi makes a big difference in handling, you wouldn't want to have that
change over the course of a green flag run. So, no, that isn't possible.
After all, don't they talk about the time 'coming up to temperature'? In
addition, I don't know what advantage it would be. This effect would only
be for the first few laps as the tires heated up to begin with. That is why
the handling is different when the tires are cold. "Coming up to
temperature" means more than just adhesion.

Quote:

..

Reporters wouldn't be the ones developing this device.
Engineers and physicists would.
Yes, but a reporter was duped. It wouldn't work. There would be better

ways to do it in the wheel or valves stem (where NASCAR is already looking);
but the advantage would be miniscule.

Carey in Manvel

Quote:

#23

"SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Actually, a "hole" or "slot" without a valve would let all the "air" out
with little control, over the course of time.

Exactly. Given a few parameters, the rate and time, etc. are even calculable
(I was able to in thermo class, but not any more).

Quote:

Read it again, I said O2 was a fire hazard and that nitrogen was more
stable.

I got it

Quote:

Yes, if it were a "scoop".

He screwed up on this one.

Quote:

The fact that your theory about a small hole just bleeding off air beeing
wrong. It would bleed off all the "air" in the tire without a valve of
some
sort in place to stop the bleeding once the pressure got to where the CC
or
whomever wanted.

A leak is a leak is a leak. I guess this guy never had issues with his
racing tires.

Quote:

I did, and you didn't see the picture it made.

Dark, steamy and stinky.

Carey in Manvel

#24

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:b6XPg.31521$Md4.25761 (AT) tornado (DOT) southeast.rr.com...

Actually, a "hole" or "slot" without a valve would let all the "air" out
with little control, over the course of time.

Exactly. Given a few parameters, the rate and time, etc. are even
calculable
(I was able to in thermo class, but not any more).

I imagine that you could Carey. You strike me as a fart smellar.

Quote:

Read it again, I said O2 was a fire hazard and that nitrogen was more
stable.

I got it

lol That was aimed at the guy that thinks a hole will only let so much air
out without letting it all out, not you bud. I know that you know this
technical stuff better than I and most people in RASN if I had to fathom a
guess.

Quote:

Yes, if it were a "scoop".

He screwed up on this one.

Yup. Makes me wonder if in this case, that Harvick is right, and a competing
team gave Dilner the "scoop" for less than honorable reasons.

Quote:

The fact that your theory about a small hole just bleeding off air
beeing
wrong. It would bleed off all the "air" in the tire without a valve of
some
sort in place to stop the bleeding once the pressure got to where the CC
or
whomever wanted.

A leak is a leak is a leak. I guess this guy never had issues with his
racing tires.

Tis true. Slicks especially, are a different breed of tire from the basic
street tire. I swear I've seen worn slicks "ooze" air out of them from just
sitting in the garage. I ain't talking a bad valve or stem, or a bad bead or
rim. I'm talking air passing thru the tread it was so thin.

Quote:

I did, and you didn't see the picture it made.

Dark, steamy and stinky.

lol.....Nah, again, aimed that at Speed Racer. I am still trying to figure
out how to laser cut or drill a hole anywhere in a tire/rim assembly that
would allow any of the pressurized contents to remain in it without totally
leaking out. I'd think a bleeder valve, with a specific PSI cutoff would
work, but apparently I wuz rong. :-) Apparently such microscopic holes in
just the right places can bleed off just a certain amount of the pressurized
contents and then magically stop when the optimum pressure is reached. You
reckon they have a Tire Slime capsule in there rigged to burst and reseal
the holes at just the right moment? That's more plausible to me, even if it
would totally screw the balance on the tire in all likelihood. They could
probably rig it to burst at a certain temp, matter of fact....lol

Quote:

Carey in Manvel

#25

"Carey Akin" <cmakin (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Michael E" <racingfast (AT) anycost (DOT) org> wrote in message
news:muOdndCeGujAuI3YnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com...

Quote:

"Coming up to
temperature" means more than just adhesion.

AMEN! Preach on Carey. The tires, outside of providing the contact patch,
are also an extension of the suspension. Their "air pressure" affects the
spring rate of the specific corner to which they are attached. There are
other variables, of course, like sidewall firmness, and what have you, but
my basic premise, is correct IMO.

And if you want to get REAL technical (and Carey you can confirm, deny, or
fine tune this), each corner of the car also affects the opposite corner
when talking about suspension and crossweight settings. IE: What you do to
the suspension and/or "tire pressure" on the RR (including track bar and
wedge settings), has a direct affect on the LF. And vice versa and so on and
so forth. I wish I had a nice 4-way scale illustration to show this, as it
is amazing to the uninitiated the first time they see a change to the RR
affect the weight on the LF (again, just as an example).

#26

"SimRacer"<nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Right on Carey. I didn't think I could make it any plainer. Guess I have
to
remember the audience on occasion...

I've often wondered why it is that you only seem to communicate with a small
portion of those who use this forum.
Your last statement tells me all that I need to know about that situation.

#27

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:59:19 GMT, "SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Read it again, I said O2 was a fire hazard and that nitrogen was more
stable.

I thought the issue with nitrogen was it would be less susceptable to heat build up than would a mix of 21%~ oxygen and 79%~ nitrogen resulting in less difference in pressure from

a cold tire to a hot tire?

Quote:

G

#28

"Michael E" <racingfast (AT) anycost (DOT) org> wrote

Quote:

"SimRacer"<nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Right on Carey. I didn't think I could make it any plainer. Guess I have
to
remember the audience on occasion...

I've often wondered why it is that you only seem to communicate with a
small
portion of those who use this forum.
Your last statement tells me all that I need to know about that situation.

Hey, it's a free country. I'll consider myself KF'd on your end, and we
should be fine then.

#29

"Michael E" <racingfast (AT) anycost (DOT) org> wrote

Quote:

"JerseyMike" <clamdigger724 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:XhRPg.182585$5i3.47850 (AT) bgtnsc04-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net...

"SimDriver" <NR2003.is.the (AT) best (DOT) sim.net> wrote in message
news:T2HPg.13882$xQ1.17 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net...

"Crusader" <cru357 (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:4n8gncF97qklU1 (AT) individual (DOT) net...

I'll be The First!
While watching Victory Lane, i noticed the #29 car was still in
inspection as they left the air (1 hour later).
I mentioned to a friend that it seems the #29 might have
discrepancies
since usually post-race inspection takes much less than 1 hour.
I can't believe NA$CAr will once again whitewash a potential
violation.
Apparently N refuses to take a win away ever since they did it once
vs Ricky Rudd at Sears Point.

Considering all the recent past serious rule violations
surrounding RCR (& their sudden resurgence), i smell a conspiracy!
CRU
This can explain the phenomenal qualifying performance the RCR cars
have
been achieving lately.

what is so phenomenal about their qual. performance?
Loudon #29 1st...#31 22nd
Richmond #29 5th... #31 2nd
Cali. #29 15th...#31 7th
Bristol. #29 7th...#31 2nd
Michigan #29 5th...#31 1st
Watkins Glenn #29 7th...#31 16th
Indy #29 10th...#31 1st
Pocono #29 12th...#31 6th

this really doens't sound too phenomenal to me. to get to phenomenal,
they
would each (including the 07 of Bowyer) have to be achieving the results
Ryan Newman had a few years ago.

Considering the fact that Burton couldn't qualify in the top 10
practically the entire time he drove for Roush, I'd say his qualifying
efforts this season would be nothing short of a miracle, or maybe it's
just an engineering marvel...

not a miracle, probably just better equiptment.

w/Jack Roush in;
'99 he qual'd in the T-10 10x's w/ 1 pole.
'00 12 T-10x's w/1pole
'01 6 T-10's
'02 3 T-10's
'03 5T-10's

seems to me that the equiptment went down hill, because i know the 99 car
stillisn't burning up the track in either qual. or finishing.

mike.........

#30

"Gordon" <jimmygator (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:59:19 GMT, "SimRacer" <nOspaM@simracer68 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
wrote:

Read it again, I said O2 was a fire hazard and that nitrogen was more
stable.

I thought the issue with nitrogen was it would be less susceptable to heat
build up than would a mix of 21%~ oxygen and 79%~ nitrogen resulting in less

difference in pressure from

Quote:

a cold tire to a hot tire?

G

I was just correcting his statement/reading of my statement. I don't know
that nitrogen builds up any more or less. And I don't think pure O2 in a
racing tire is *that big* of a fire hazard - but when compressed and in an
environment totally encapsulated in O2, it can be very flammable. It was the
reason that the Apollo 1 fire was as instant and as deadly to the astronauts
(Grissom, Chaffey & White?) as it was, the capsule was sealed and totally O2
filled. One small spark/flare up killed those 3 guys in a matter of seconds.
I think it's also the reason you can't smoke in hospital rooms.

Regardless, the buildup in pressure in the current tires is usually pretty
good. I dunno if it would be anymore with "air" (a mix of gases beyond O2 as
Carey has indicated) than it is with nitrogen or not. I just assume it would
simply be less predictable (using "air") from tire to tire, from tire set to
tire set, and is the reason they use a more pure and inert gas, to try and
eliminate some of the guess work in just how much the clearinghouse of
gases/vapors that comprise "air" would be. I'm sure if you sampled the air
right beside you at any given time you'd find O2, H2O, CO, CO2, methane,
nitrogen, and so on.