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Re: Talladega's plate just got smaller
Nascar NASCAR and other professional stock car racing (rec.autos.sport.nascar)
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Re: Talladega's plate just got smaller -
10-11-2009
, 02:32 AM
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Contrary to opinion held by some, NASCAR does not think debris hitting spectators is a good idea. I just wish they would stop picking on the plate. Do something that does not hurt the racing for a change. ___ NASCAR slowing cars for Talladega race Dustin Long | Virginian Pilot NASCAR will reduce the size of the restrictor plate and allow teams an optional change as a way to slow the cars and try to keep them from getting airborne at Talladega. Sprint Cup Series Director John Darby told me Friday at Auto Club Speedway that the restrictor plate will be reduced 1/64 of an inch. The new size will be 59/64 of an inch. Darby estimates it will shave 12 horsepower off the engines. Teams also have been given an option on side wickers, something they hadn't been allowed to use before at Talladega. Darby said that teams "will be able to add the same little side wicker to the end plate (on the rear wing) much like they do at the downforce tracks. If you look at all the cars in the garage right now on that end plate, all the way out on the back edge they've got a little half by half piece of alumnium. That's eight inches long. It helps in yaw or when the cars are turned. It kind of settles the back of the car down a little bit.'' Recall that at Talladega in the spring Carl Edwards was leading when he blocked Brad Keselowski coming to the finish line. They made contact, Edwards spun and got punted by Ryan Newman into the catch fence. Seven fans were injured. Edwards got out of the car and ran to the finish line to complete the race. Said NASCAR President Mike Helton about the incident and what NASCAR has done since. "When you review the accident, what sent (Carl Edwards' car) up was being impacted by another car,'' Helton said. "There's not an aero fix for something like that. They took all that back, they studied the video, they studied the aerodynamics of the cars and everything. There's some things you just can't prevent. We'll do everything we can. I think our reputation says that we're going to do everything we can to make these cars as safe as they are. But als you have to give some understanding of the fact that circumstances on the race track are going to do things that we can't predict. So the bigger issue was to make sure these cars were safe. "In the case of Talladega, it was upgrading the cable and the fences. That fencing did what it was intended to do. It did exactly what it was intended to do. They were to learn from that accident as we have at Talladega before, ways of even improving that system to keep th race cars on the race track.'' This all came about Friday after Newman, earlier in the day, questioned NASCAR's reaction to Talladega, saying: "I'm glad they did something (in regards to raising the fencing from 14 to 22 feet). Ultimately that's not the answer. Ultimately we need to keep the race cars on the ground. I don't think anything has been done with respect to that.'' He later added: "I'm not trying to bash NASCAR, but I just don't know if anything has been done.'' I found Newman after talking to Darby, Helton and Robin Pemberton and told Newman what was going to happen and what Helton said. I asked Ryan if his opinon changed after seeing what they told me. Here's what Newman said: "The only thing I disagree with what Mike says "there's not an aero fix for something like that.' There's an aero fix for everything. You can glue the race cars down on the race track aerodynamically. Carl's car was airborne before I hit him. I know that. My point is, I know he was hit by another car, but when he was spun around, no car touched him then his car became airborne. I don't agree with everything (Helton) said. I'm not trying to pick an argument. "There are things we could do. I don't care what they studied, there are always things that we can do to make the race cars safer. I know Mike and Darby and everybody else will agree to that. At the same time, just saying that there's nothing that we can do to prevent something like that is not the case. We've built different race cars. We've built roof flaps. We've built wings over spoilers. We've built a lot of things that have changed racing from a safety standpoint, so saying there's nothing we can do to prevent something like that, I don't think is necessarily a true statement. "That's what I said in the media center after the (Talladega) race. It's no different then then now. I'm not trying to pick a fight. It wasn't an impact that caused it. It was the car that spun and got airborne. I watched it twice earlier in the day (at Talladega), cars spun in the tri-oval right in front of me and they both spun to the inside and never got backwards. As soon as Carl's car got turned around backwards, he became airborne. "I should have used the law of aveages to realize that eventually one was going to spin high and it did. I chose wrong.'' I asked Ryan about the reduction of the restrictor plate. Here's what he said: "That helps. Those things help. Everything else is true. The only thing I would disagree with is you can't say there's nothing we can do to prevent something like that because that's not the case. As long as what you wrote is exactly what he said (I transcribed what Helton told me off my tape recorder and showed Ryan that). "I'm not picking a fight. What I'm saying is we should never close our eyes whether it's the race track or the race cars or the walls, the fences, the foam, the roof flaps, whatever we can do when we go to a race track like Talladega, which is entirely different from any other race track that we go to to make the race cars safer, I don't care if there's one engineer or 40 engineers that NASCAR has hired, there are things that we can do, there are things we can study, there are things we can have an impact on and make it safer for the drivers. As we saw at Talladega the first race, more importanly the fans." http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/nascar-slowing-cars-talladega-race DISCUSS THIS TOPIC AT... *http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NASCAR-Group |
sure it slows down speeds and probably will keep cars from going air
borne, but tightening up the pack will increase the chances of a wreck
which can still hurt drivers and spectators. making the plate larger
will spread out the pack, but increase speeds so if a wreck does
happen a car could jump into the fence but the chances are much lower
for a big wreck. i dunno makes sense to me to not make the plate
smaller, but then again maybe i've had a few too many tallboys
watching the college fb games today
#2
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On Oct 10, 11:31 pm, A. Jones <ajo... (AT) intrtek (DOT) com> wrote: Contrary to opinion held by some, NASCAR does not think debris hitting spectators is a good idea. I just wish they would stop picking on the plate. Do something that does not hurt the racing for a change. ___ NASCAR slowing cars for Talladega race Dustin Long | Virginian Pilot NASCAR will reduce the size of the restrictor plate and allow teams an optional change as a way to slow the cars and try to keep them from getting airborne at Talladega. Sprint Cup Series Director John Darby told me Friday at Auto Club Speedway that the restrictor plate will be reduced 1/64 of an inch. The new size will be 59/64 of an inch. Darby estimates it will shave 12 horsepower off the engines. Teams also have been given an option on side wickers, something they hadn't been allowed to use before at Talladega. Darby said that teams "will be able to add the same little side wicker to the end plate (on the rear wing) much like they do at the downforce tracks. If you look at all the cars in the garage right now on that end plate, all the way out on the back edge they've got a little half by half piece of alumnium. That's eight inches long. It helps in yaw or when the cars are turned. It kind of settles the back of the car down a little bit.'' Recall that at Talladega in the spring Carl Edwards was leading when he blocked Brad Keselowski coming to the finish line. They made contact, Edwards spun and got punted by Ryan Newman into the catch fence. Seven fans were injured. Edwards got out of the car and ran to the finish line to complete the race. Said NASCAR President Mike Helton about the incident and what NASCAR has done since. "When you review the accident, what sent (Carl Edwards' car) up was being impacted by another car,'' Helton said. "There's not an aero fix for something like that. They took all that back, they studied the video, they studied the aerodynamics of the cars and everything. There's some things you just can't prevent. We'll do everything we can. I think our reputation says that we're going to do everything we can to make these cars as safe as they are. But als you have to give some understanding of the fact that circumstances on the race track are going to do things that we can't predict. So the bigger issue was to make sure these cars were safe. "In the case of Talladega, it was upgrading the cable and the fences. That fencing did what it was intended to do. It did exactly what it was intended to do. They were to learn from that accident as we have at Talladega before, ways of even improving that system to keep th race cars on the race track.'' This all came about Friday after Newman, earlier in the day, questioned NASCAR's reaction to Talladega, saying: "I'm glad they did something (in regards to raising the fencing from 14 to 22 feet). Ultimately that's not the answer. Ultimately we need to keep the race cars on the ground. I don't think anything has been done with respect to that.'' He later added: "I'm not trying to bash NASCAR, but I just don't know if anything has been done.'' I found Newman after talking to Darby, Helton and Robin Pemberton and told Newman what was going to happen and what Helton said. I asked Ryan if his opinon changed after seeing what they told me. Here's what Newman said: "The only thing I disagree with what Mike says "there's not an aero fix for something like that.' There's an aero fix for everything. You can glue the race cars down on the race track aerodynamically. Carl's car was airborne before I hit him. I know that. My point is, I know he was hit by another car, but when he was spun around, no car touched him then his car became airborne. I don't agree with everything (Helton) said. I'm not trying to pick an argument. "There are things we could do. I don't care what they studied, there are always things that we can do to make the race cars safer. I know Mike and Darby and everybody else will agree to that. At the same time, just saying that there's nothing that we can do to prevent something like that is not the case. We've built different race cars. We've built roof flaps. We've built wings over spoilers. We've built a lot of things that have changed racing from a safety standpoint, so saying there's nothing we can do to prevent something like that, I don't think is necessarily a true statement. "That's what I said in the media center after the (Talladega) race. It's no different then then now. I'm not trying to pick a fight. It wasn't an impact that caused it. It was the car that spun and got airborne. I watched it twice earlier in the day (at Talladega), cars spun in the tri-oval right in front of me and they both spun to the inside and never got backwards. As soon as Carl's car got turned around backwards, he became airborne. "I should have used the law of aveages to realize that eventually one was going to spin high and it did. I chose wrong.'' I asked Ryan about the reduction of the restrictor plate. Here's what he said: "That helps. Those things help. Everything else is true. The only thing I would disagree with is you can't say there's nothing we can do to prevent something like that because that's not the case. As long as what you wrote is exactly what he said (I transcribed what Helton told me off my tape recorder and showed Ryan that). "I'm not picking a fight. What I'm saying is we should never close our eyes whether it's the race track or the race cars or the walls, the fences, the foam, the roof flaps, whatever we can do when we go to a race track like Talladega, which is entirely different from any other race track that we go to to make the race cars safer, I don't care if there's one engineer or 40 engineers that NASCAR has hired, there are things that we can do, there are things we can study, there are things we can have an impact on and make it safer for the drivers. As we saw at Talladega the first race, more importanly the fans." http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/nascar-slowing-cars-talladega-race DISCUSS THIS TOPIC AT... http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NASCAR-Group by making the plate smaller, does that not just tighten up the pack? sure it slows down speeds and probably will keep cars from going air borne, but tightening up the pack will increase the chances of a wreck which can still hurt drivers and spectators. making the plate larger will spread out the pack, but increase speeds so if a wreck does happen a car could jump into the fence but the chances are much lower for a big wreck. i dunno makes sense to me to not make the plate smaller, but then again maybe i've had a few too many tallboys watching the college fb games today |
would compact the pack more? Surely whatever differential between the cars
remain even though they all have 12hp less?
--
Chad
#3
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by making the plate smaller, does that not just tighten up the pack? |
don't have to slow for the corner the pack forms. Reducing power
further just means you have a slower moving pack.
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sure it slows down speeds and probably will keep cars from going air borne, |
flaps for, way back in 1994, the magic speed at which a car took
off, with the flaps up, was 204mph. Since then changes in the
aero of the cars have clearly reduced that speed. Obviously with
the CoT it's somewhere less than 200mph (since that's about how
fast the cars were going at Talladega in May, when Edward's car
flew), but I haven't seen any reports of tunnel testing to say
what the magic speed is with the CoT.
If the magic speed is 198, and taking a 64th off the plate slows
the cars to 196, then it'll help keep the cars from flying. If
the magic speed is 194, and you slow them to 196, then you really
haven't achieved much.
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making the plate larger will spread out the pack, |
the corners. At Daytona, that would take a very small increase
(on old tires drivers are lifting now), but at Talladega you'd
probably have to make the plate much bigger...I'd guess you'd
see speeds in the 210-212 range before drivers are really lifting
in the corners.
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but increase speeds so if a wreck does happen a car could jump into the fence but the chances are much lower for a big wreck. |
of cars flying. A car flies when it's turned around backwards at
more than whatever the magic speed is. It doesn't matter if it's
a 20 car wreck or a 1 car wreck, if a car goes backwards too fast,
it flies. Going faster obviously increases the likelyhood that a
car will still be going too fast when it's spun backwards.
That, by the way, is why high speeds at tracks like Fontana aren't
a problem. At Fontana the cars are over the magic speed for just
a fraction of a second at the end of the straight. If a car were
to get spun backwards at that point, it would fly, but the time
is so short, and location on the track is not prone to spin cars,
so that the risk of a car flying is very low.
John
#4
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Obviously with the CoT it's somewhere less than 200mph (since that's about how fast the cars were going at Talladega in May, when Edward's car flew), |
I don't really remember, but I thought his car was on the
way 'down' when he got hit by another car (39??)
IOW, he may not have "flown" otherwise..
#5
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"John McCoy" wrote in message Obviously with the CoT it's somewhere less than 200mph (since that's about how fast the cars were going at Talladega in May, when Edward's car flew), Didn't Carl start flying after he got hit by another car? I don't really remember, but I thought his car was on the way 'down' when he got hit by another car (39??) IOW, he may not have "flown" otherwise.. |
but within it Newman clearly says Edwards lifted when he spun,
and then came down onto his car (and then was thrown back up into
the fence).
It's worth reading (much as it pains me to say that about one
of Alan's posts); Newman is clearly not impressed with NASCAR's
brain trust on this issue.
John
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...Newman clearly says Edwards lifted when he spun, and then came down onto his car (and then was thrown back up into the fence). |
Carl 'was' on the way down, when he was launched by the 39?
So my point was/is still, that Carl "problably" would have not
fenced it,
had he not been "re" launched by another car.
It's not necessarily a flaw in the car's design..
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It's worth reading (much as it pains me to say that about one of Alan's posts); Newman is clearly not impressed with NASCAR's brain trust on this issue. John |
degree, I don't know that I put 'tons' of priority into his
opinion either.
#7
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So, I'm still not clear. Carl 'was' on the way down, when he was launched by the 39? So my point was/is still, that Carl "problably" would have not fenced it, had he not been "re" launched by another car. It's not necessarily a flaw in the car's design.. |
If Newman's car wouldn't have been there, Carl wouldn't have fenced
it.
The roof flaps did their job.
The car absolutly did it's job. (Carl unhurt)
Speed had nothing to do with it, nor car design.
#8
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On Oct 11, 3:29*pm, "Anna Khonda" <Anna_Kho... (AT) nospaming (DOT) com> wrote: So, I'm still not clear. Carl 'was' on the way down, when he was launched by the 39? So my point was/is still, that Carl "problably" would have not fenced it, had he not been "re" launched by another car. It's not necessarily a flaw in the car's design.. That's the way I see it. If Newman's car wouldn't have been there, Carl wouldn't have fenced it. The roof flaps did their job. The car absolutly did it's job. (Carl unhurt) Speed had nothing to do with it, nor car design. |
and the 99 was "re-launched". this is why i believe making a larger
plate, would help because, as it is with the plate restricting so much
air to the engine, the teams that can't punch out the horsepower can
be competitive on these tracks and are quite often the ones that cause
the big wrecks because they don't have the skills to be up with the
big dogs.
#9
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"John McCoy" wrote in message ...Newman clearly says Edwards lifted when he spun, and then came down onto his car (and then was thrown back up into the fence). So, I'm still not clear. Carl 'was' on the way down, when he was launched by the 39? So my point was/is still, that Carl "problably" would have not fenced it, had he not been "re" launched by another car. It's not necessarily a flaw in the car's design.. |
around backwards, it lifted off the ground. As it started to
come back down, Newman ran under it, relaunching it into the
fence.
Now, in that particular sequence, Edwards probably would not have
hit the fence if Newman hadn't hit him. But the car got up in
the air - had it been at a slightly different angle, it might
have. And more to the point, if a car isn't up in the air then
another car can't run under it, and throw it further up.
Obviously, it's safer for everyone concerned if the car is designed
to not fly up in the air.
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It's worth reading (much as it pains me to say that about one of Alan's posts); Newman is clearly not impressed with NASCAR's brain trust on this issue. John I know Newman is some sort of engineer, not by practice but by degree, I don't know that I put 'tons' of priority into his opinion either. |
knowedgeable than anyone you'll see quoted from NASCAR (NASCAR
does have good engineering minds in their tech center, but
they are carefully isolated from the press).
John
(* that's significant - the roof flaps are designed to control
a counterclockwise spin, since that's the most common)
#10
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The roof flaps did their job. |
the job of the roof flaps is to prevent that.
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The car absolutly did it's job. (Carl unhurt) |
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Speed had nothing to do with it, nor car design. |
John
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