3800 RWD Questions

#11

"Joe" <Joe (AT) dontspam (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:131c24cqr295e20 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com...
I am still toying with the idea of putting a 3800 engine into my Mercedes
230 CE and want to learn more about it.

Besides Camaro and Firebird, which cars used the 3800 in RWD?

I can answer this one. The answer is none after 1986. Don't listen to
people who say there are some. GM does have a rear drive V6 car right now
(the CTS) and that might yield something, but they just didn't make rear
drive V6 cars in the 90's, and they don't use the 3800 in a truck.

In the 1980's, GM
rear-drive cars with the Buick V6 were very common, but that was the
earlier
version; all except the "Grand National" Turbo were carbureted if I
remember
correctly.

It still came in some Firebirds.

#12

"shiden_kai" <V-L-M (AT) hotma1l (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Steve wrote:

I would say that its just an all-around better engine. Not that
there's anything dreadful about the 4.3, but the 3800 is better in
the same way a Buick 350 was better than a Chevy 350. Bottom end
reliability, cylinder geometry, rod ratio, valvetrain stability. All
better.

Sorry, I'd take a chevy small block over a Buick 350 anyday for
reliability. The Buick 3.8 v-6 in it's early days wasn't that great
of a motor either! I've worked on all of these engines in their
time......buick engines weren't that great.

Now an Olds 350....that was a great engine.

Ian

Another Olds-man! Only weak point was the pot-metal rocker pivots,

which were cheap to replace and later perfected with steel pivots. You and
I along with GM agree this is possibly their best v8--after all which engine
did they try to convert to diesel? And which did they use on the first
hi-dollar Seville(77, 78, & 79) with fuel injection? Must've been a reason,
huh? The Buick 350's would get to operating temp and 10-w-30 oil would lose
its viscosity and cause lifters to start clicking and oil light would come
on--cam bearings? rods? mains? excess clearance/wear? And even Pontiac
301, 350, and 400's would do likewise. Switching to Castrol 20-w-50 or
straight 30 or 40 weight would sometimes help. Olds 350 never did that, as
valve train and bottom ends held such close tolerances and would go 200k
miles with virtually zero wear on crank.
I also experienced similar minimal wear on the Chev 350. My experience
was that only abused Chev engines seemed to give problems as they too would
go 200k miles with approx. zero wear on crank and would do it on 10-w-30
oil.
I'd say my idea of a nearly perfect v-8 engine would be that Olds 350
with fuel injection and with steel rocker pivots. All these are my personal
opinions based on experience with approx. 275 cars per year for a # of years
during 68-85 (68-79 model cars)--mostly consisting of the entire GM gamut.
BTW: my next door neighbor swears by Studebaker v-8--and that's ok with me.
Opinions do differ and I respect that! s

#13

"Joe" <Joe (AT) dontspam (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:131c24cqr295e20 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com...
I am still toying with the idea of putting a 3800 engine into my Mercedes
230 CE and want to learn more about it.

Besides Camaro and Firebird, which cars used the 3800 in RWD?

I can answer this one. The answer is none after 1986. Don't listen to
people who say there are some. GM does have a rear drive V6 car right now
(the CTS) and that might yield something, but they just didn't make rear
drive V6 cars in the 90's, and they don't use the 3800 in a truck.
snip

Not putting 3800's in pickups may have been one of GM's biggest missed
opportunities. But then the buyer just might never need a new one

s

#14

They used the 3800 in some Firebirds and Cameros which are rear wheel drive
so getting the RWD arrangement is not an issue. A local yard will sell me
"everything that you need" for $1200 wiring harness, radiator,
transmission, computer and exhaust. The engine has 160,000 miles on it.

The electrical should not be too bad unless I have to completely fab a
harness.

The das gages may be a hassle.

I'll keep you posted.

"sdlomi2" <sdlSPAMomi2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:131cth1qfk8s442 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com...
Two reasons really, I am more familiar with the 3800. I am thinking, but
do
not know, that the 3800 has a smaller block and weighs less than the
4.3.

Let me know if I am misinformed.

"sdlomi2" <sdlSPAMomi2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:l1tRh.369$Dl1.23 (AT) bignews2 (DOT) bellsouth.net...

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:131c24cqr295e20 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com...
I am still toying with the idea of putting a 3800 engine into my
Mercedes
230 CE and want to learn more about it.

What is the weight with the four speed auto transmission?

Which side is the starter on? (Steering box clearance)

Besides Camaro and Firebird, which cars used the 3800 in RWD?

Thanks

Scott, why don't you use the 4.3 v-6. They have proved their
longevity
quite similar to 3800; already a RWD; plenty of overdrive 700R4
trannies
which will shift w/o need of a computer; plenty of aftermarket hop-ups
available; fuel mileage is good (but not quite up to 3800 using its
computers & computer-aided design for total pkgs., like an entire
LeSbre,
ParkAve., Riviera).
I have an 86 S10 Blazer with 95 LT1 v-8 and trans--a nice install
and
great performance. Also have an 03 S10 pickup w/4.3 Vortec, all stock.
The
pkp will smoke the tires "off the line" and quickly made me change my
mind
about doing a similar-to-Blazer v8 swap. There just isn't that much to
be
gained. Pkp does about 24-26 mpg on a straight interstate run. I'm
sure
a
stock 4.3 w/700R4 will deliver decent fuel mileage in your Mercedes.
And
if
you want more power--dunno what for--there are many performance mods
you
can
purchase off the shelf. You could even put, say a 4.1:1 rear end in
it,
and
with that R-4's 70% overdrive, cut it down to 2.88:1 for the road(4.11
X
0.70=2.88, rounded.)
This eliminates need for a computer to control any fuel
injection(assuming you use an aftermarket intake and carb) or to
control
the
trans-shifting. A simple-to-install kit makes that 700R4 shift from
vacuum
and go into lockup mode--cannot do this with the 4L60E, tho'.
Good luck to you. Let us all know how your swap goes, whatever you
use.
s

Scott, you're right about the weight--3800 weighs 392# and the 4.3
weighs 425#. And I can understand your preferences. I agree, I'd love to
have a nice transplanted 3800 AND supercharger in like an s10 or even
mid-60's pickup. I feel like that's one of GM's finest--so powerful plus
above 30mpg on the LeSabres and even Park Ave's. I'm feel we would be
hard-pressed to even approach such economy with a transplant. But the
electronics plus virtual virgin territory with the fwd-to-rwd would be
more
than I, personally, could handle. And, while the 4.3 is just a 5.7 with 2
cylinders cut off(same bore and stroke, even), I'd be right at home with
that, using an intake and carb. and HEI ignition--just run one hot wire to
the dist cap!
Again, please let us know if you get it done. Who knows, after you
get
it all figured out and working, many of us want pics and info to do
copycat
swaps! Later.....sdlomi2

#15

Transferring the computer controls are easy:

The only issue I see is, would be the dash gauges. But, magic can be worked.

Good Luck!

RK
"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

They used the 3800 in some Firebirds and Cameros which are rear wheel
drive
so getting the RWD arrangement is not an issue. A local yard will sell me
"everything that you need" for $1200 wiring harness, radiator,
transmission, computer and exhaust. The engine has 160,000 miles on it.

The electrical should not be too bad unless I have to completely fab a
harness.

The das gages may be a hassle.

I'll keep you posted.

"sdlomi2" <sdlSPAMomi2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:MMxRh.43108$68.569 (AT) bignews8 (DOT) bellsouth.net...

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:131cth1qfk8s442 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com...
Two reasons really, I am more familiar with the 3800. I am thinking,
but
do
not know, that the 3800 has a smaller block and weighs less than the
4.3.

Let me know if I am misinformed.

"sdlomi2" <sdlSPAMomi2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:l1tRh.369$Dl1.23 (AT) bignews2 (DOT) bellsouth.net...

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:131c24cqr295e20 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com...
I am still toying with the idea of putting a 3800 engine into my
Mercedes
230 CE and want to learn more about it.

What is the weight with the four speed auto transmission?

Which side is the starter on? (Steering box clearance)

Besides Camaro and Firebird, which cars used the 3800 in RWD?

Thanks

Scott, why don't you use the 4.3 v-6. They have proved their
longevity
quite similar to 3800; already a RWD; plenty of overdrive 700R4
trannies
which will shift w/o need of a computer; plenty of aftermarket hop-ups
available; fuel mileage is good (but not quite up to 3800 using its
computers & computer-aided design for total pkgs., like an entire
LeSbre,
ParkAve., Riviera).
I have an 86 S10 Blazer with 95 LT1 v-8 and trans--a nice install
and
great performance. Also have an 03 S10 pickup w/4.3 Vortec, all
stock.
The
pkp will smoke the tires "off the line" and quickly made me change my
mind
about doing a similar-to-Blazer v8 swap. There just isn't that much
to
be
gained. Pkp does about 24-26 mpg on a straight interstate run. I'm
sure
a
stock 4.3 w/700R4 will deliver decent fuel mileage in your Mercedes.
And
if
you want more power--dunno what for--there are many performance mods
you
can
purchase off the shelf. You could even put, say a 4.1:1 rear end in
it,
and
with that R-4's 70% overdrive, cut it down to 2.88:1 for the road(4.11
X
0.70=2.88, rounded.)
This eliminates need for a computer to control any fuel
injection(assuming you use an aftermarket intake and carb) or to
control
the
trans-shifting. A simple-to-install kit makes that 700R4 shift from
vacuum
and go into lockup mode--cannot do this with the 4L60E, tho'.
Good luck to you. Let us all know how your swap goes, whatever
you
use.
s

Scott, you're right about the weight--3800 weighs 392# and the 4.3
weighs 425#. And I can understand your preferences. I agree, I'd love
to
have a nice transplanted 3800 AND supercharger in like an s10 or even
mid-60's pickup. I feel like that's one of GM's finest--so powerful plus
above 30mpg on the LeSabres and even Park Ave's. I'm feel we would be
hard-pressed to even approach such economy with a transplant. But the
electronics plus virtual virgin territory with the fwd-to-rwd would be
more
than I, personally, could handle. And, while the 4.3 is just a 5.7 with
2
cylinders cut off(same bore and stroke, even), I'd be right at home with
that, using an intake and carb. and HEI ignition--just run one hot wire
to
the dist cap!
Again, please let us know if you get it done. Who knows, after you
get
it all figured out and working, many of us want pics and info to do
copycat
swaps! Later.....sdlomi2

#16

"Scott Buchanan" <t120rv (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

They used the 3800 in some Firebirds and Cameros which are rear wheel
drive
so getting the RWD arrangement is not an issue. A local yard will sell me
"everything that you need" for $1200 wiring harness, radiator,
transmission, computer and exhaust. The engine has 160,000 miles on it.

Geeze - I guess they would. $1200 for a setup with that many miles? They
ought to be paying you to take it off their hands. Keep shopping. That's
robbery.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE (AT) alltel (DOT) net

#17

On Apr 6, 2:46 am, "Scott Buchanan" <t12... (AT) pacifier (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

I am still toying with the idea of putting a 3800 engine into my Mercedes
230 CE and want to learn more about it.

What is the weight with the four speed auto transmission?

Which side is the starter on? (Steering box clearance)

Besides Camaro and Firebird, which cars used the 3800 in RWD?

One major difference to consider is the intake manifold. The FWD
cars, the supercharged and think the N/A as weel, the throttle body is
at the rear of the engine (relative to the crank). This is fine in
the FWD application...it just goes above the transmission and puts the
airbox in there somewhere. For a RWD application the TB is usually in
front. In other GM cars the supercharger would interfere with the
firewall. Might be possible to flip it around with a custom manifold
and pulley arrangement, as the S/C is driven by a shaft from in front
of the engine.

I'd suggest sticking to the Camaro/Firebird 3800. Make sure you can
tell the difference between a 3400 and a 3800. I don't remember which
years had which, but the 3400 is clearly inferior, and 60 degree vs.
90.

Peace,
Harry

#18

shiden_kai wrote:

Quote:

Sorry, I'd take a chevy small block over a Buick 350 anyday for
reliability. The Buick 3.8 v-6 in it's early days wasn't that great
of a motor either! I've worked on all of these engines in their
time......buick engines weren't that great.

I won't argue that point too much, although I've seen a few Buick 350s
survive abuse that would kill a Chevy 350. Design-wise, what I like
about the Buick is the long conrods and the resulting rod ratio. And
from a hipo perspective the 455 is very oversquare, unlike the Olds 455
which is undersquare as suits a land-yacht or truck engine. I do know
that the Buick 455 needed help with overall lower block strength
(responds REAL well to a crank girdle) so I can see that weakness
manifesting itself in other ways too.

Quote:

Now an Olds 350....that was a great engine.

Yep. Really the same block (without the raised deck) as the Olds 455.
Can you imagine how good big GMC pickups and dump trucks of the 70s and
80s would have been with an Olds 455 instead of the POS Chevy 454???

#19

Steve wrote:

Quote:

Yep. Really the same block (without the raised deck) as the Olds 455.
Can you imagine how good big GMC pickups and dump trucks of the 70s
and 80s would have been with an Olds 455 instead of the POS Chevy
454???

When the 350 olds diesels were popping left, right, and center.....we
offered to install rebuilt 350 gas engines in the trucks if the customer
was tired of dealing with the Olds diesels. This was a nice swap, as
the engine fit right into place, all the brackets and accessories bolted
right up, the only items we had to fab up were some throttle cable
and TV cable stuff. We usually got complete 350 gas engines from
the wreckers with carb, dist...etc and then just overhauled them.

And yes, I was never a fan of the big block chevy. In the 80's, we
were always dealing with scuffed pistons and broken exhaust bolts,
warped manifolds...etc.

Ian

#20

In article <YJWdnbu_2ZPQ4IfbnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d (AT) texas (DOT) net>, no (AT) spam (DOT) thanks
says...

Quote:

shiden_kai wrote:

Sorry, I'd take a chevy small block over a Buick 350 anyday for
reliability. The Buick 3.8 v-6 in it's early days wasn't that great
of a motor either! I've worked on all of these engines in their
time......buick engines weren't that great.

I won't argue that point too much, although I've seen a few Buick 350s
survive abuse that would kill a Chevy 350.

Still true with the 3800. The 3800 block is built like a freak'n tank.
Its like the bean counters never got around to thinning out the casting.
2 bolt main SBC's aren't nearly as tough thats for sure. As for the 60
degree engines (2.8 3.1 etc etc) they look like they were totally
designed by bean counters...

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3800 RWD Questions

Pontiac Discussion of Pontiac Automobiles (alt.autos.pontiac)

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-06-2007 , 08:56 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-06-2007 , 11:24 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-06-2007 , 11:30 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-07-2007 , 07:48 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-07-2007 , 08:51 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-07-2007 , 09:14 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-08-2007 , 02:54 AM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-09-2007 , 12:52 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-09-2007 , 05:44 PM

Re: 3800 RWD Questions - 04-11-2007 , 01:59 PM