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Lifetime of Saab
Saab Saab Automobiles Discussions (alt.autos.saab)
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#21
 
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Re: Lifetime of Saab -
11-20-2006
, 02:22 PM
| On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:08:56 +0100, Greg Farris <farris (AT) nasa (DOT) org> wrote: Thank you - I stand corrected. And I agree it was a reliable engine - even a very good one, considering the inherent difficulties in balancing a V4 design. Another weak point of this engine was the balance shaft drive gear. A "trivial" problem, except that whern it broke, the entire engine/transmission block had to be removed to replace it, Nope... because the oil pan had to be removed to remove the front cover. . ; For want of a nail . . . Or a better procedure... |
Breaking the oil pan seal should be followed by removal and cleaning of same,
then replacing with a new gasket. The 'easy way out' tech tip is likely to
produce leaks, as the crankcase often develops some static pressure. Of course
you can continue to clean the garage floor and add more oil, if you find this
better.
GF
Quote:
#22
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"johannes" <johs (AT) siz-nospam-efitter (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4560BC6F.A3ED4AC7 (AT) siz-nospam-efitter (DOT) com... DervMan wrote: "john" <jsmith1456 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:yj08h.56259$r4.1932 (AT) newsfe3-gui (DOT) ntli.net... "Greg Farris" <farris (AT) nasa (DOT) org> wrote in message news:ejpt5n$8tc$1 (AT) biggoron (DOT) nerim.net... In article <1163823344.249474.46450 (AT) k70g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, smaartaassaabr (AT) gmail (DOT) com says... What country, Finland, Sweden? When was it retired from the police? If it is in good shape then it is. The engines last forever. . . No they don't. SAAB engines are no different from other engines in the category, and are subject to the same wear and failure modes as their counterparts. If anything, the turbocharged models run at typically higher IMEP and specific output, and should thus be subject to greater wear. I believe the reason behind the SAAB reputation for longevity is the pride in ownership that leads many owners to take excellent care of them, and as well to boast of their achievements in long-lasting reliability. After all, the 96 generation already had a reputation for fantastic longevity, yet they had a demonstrably inferior body design, leading to massive rust problems, and their engine was nothing other than a Ford V4, the same as used in the Taurus models, which did not benefit from any particular cult reputation. The gearboxes were notoriously short-lived, a tradition SAAB has unhappily managed to perpetuate through the model-years! Well OK. volvo and saab were very solid long lasting vehicles in the 70's compared to most stuff. especially when the alternative was english or italian... If you bought one new you could expect 15 years of decent motoring....with a Fiat you'd be getting the filler out after 5.... Months in many cases. Dunno, FIAT also uses galvanised rust free bodies these days. We're discussing old ones, though, innit? Fiats may brake down from mechanical reasons, however. My Croma (1987) was quite durable for 10 years. But window frames rusted and a clutch repair seems impossible to get right, Possibly due to incompetent main dealership. (Competent servicing means a lot for durability). Interior plastics was crappy as it warped and rattled, speedo and odometer stopped working. By the same token my Dad bought a Fiat in '75 about two weeks after I was bought. Said it was a great engine, strange handling, but fell apart inside a couple of years. |
just refuses to do anything wrong or show signs of failing. True, it's
getting on a little now but we've done nothing but normal maintenance and
it's bailed us out a couple of times when the old SAAB has been a little
reluctant
That said, our son has one of those MK2 Selespeed time bombs (you know, with
the Ferrari paddles)
On the face of it, it seems okay, but it's going togo horribly wrong one day ...
Paul
1989 900 Turbo S
http://saab.go.dyndns.org/
#23
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"johannes" <johs (AT) siz-nospam-efitter (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4560BC6F.A3ED4AC7 (AT) siz-nospam-efitter (DOT) com... DervMan wrote: "john" <jsmith1456 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:yj08h.56259$r4.1932 (AT) newsfe3-gui (DOT) ntli.net... "Greg Farris" <farris (AT) nasa (DOT) org> wrote in message news:ejpt5n$8tc$1 (AT) biggoron (DOT) nerim.net... In article <1163823344.249474.46450 (AT) k70g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, smaartaassaabr (AT) gmail (DOT) com says... What country, Finland, Sweden? When was it retired from the police? If it is in good shape then it is. The engines last forever. . . No they don't. SAAB engines are no different from other engines in the category, and are subject to the same wear and failure modes as their counterparts. If anything, the turbocharged models run at typically higher IMEP and specific output, and should thus be subject to greater wear. I believe the reason behind the SAAB reputation for longevity is the pride in ownership that leads many owners to take excellent care of them, and as well to boast of their achievements in long-lasting reliability. After all, the 96 generation already had a reputation for fantastic longevity, yet they had a demonstrably inferior body design, leading to massive rust problems, and their engine was nothing other than a Ford V4, the same as used in the Taurus models, which did not benefit from any particular cult reputation. The gearboxes were notoriously short-lived, a tradition SAAB has unhappily managed to perpetuate through the model-years! Well OK. volvo and saab were very solid long lasting vehicles in the 70's compared to most stuff. especially when the alternative was english or italian... If you bought one new you could expect 15 years of decent motoring....with a Fiat you'd be getting the filler out after 5.... Months in many cases. Dunno, FIAT also uses galvanised rust free bodies these days. We're discussing old ones, though, innit? |
I had didn't rust on the body for 10 years, only the side window frames.
#24
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In article <4sdo5qFvabpkU2 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net>, DaveHinz (AT) gmail (DOT) com says... I'm having trouble with motivation on that one given your tone to those who have spent the time. Yes I got that you were having trouble with it . . . |
I could go out and google _for_ you, but I really don't see what would
be in it for me. Was it you who was wrong also about the balance shaft
gear?
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Pardon, but you said "SAAB engines". You know, that would be the ones designed by the Saab engineers. Would it? There have not been very many of them. Ford, Triumph, Ricardo - perhaps you are referring to the 2-stroke, three cylinder models. |
claims of expertise. And, while the 1.75 and 1.85 litre inline 4's could be
considered the Triumph/Ricardo engines, and the "B" engine could
marginally be, by the time of the H engine (as in the car the OP was
asking about) it's been pretty much completely re-engineered. As you
must know, of course.
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Sorry - don't take it badly. I am as much the Saab enthusiast an anyone here, and have probably owned more of them than most. It's just that, as an engineer, |
have owned more types and examples than you have, and I know plenty of
other engineers who try to talk with authority on situations they do not
understand adequately.
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I cannot accept the assertion that any mechanical device will last "forever". Even if we accept the implied hyperbole, it is just plain poor advice to suggest that an engine with 400,000 km on it still has a lot of useful life remaining. |
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/faq/miles/miles900.html
Maybe all these people are just, you know, lying or something.
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Saabs are pretty well made cars, and have attained near cult status amongst enthusiasts, where they enjoy fierce loyalty for their image and design features. Objectively, however, one can be proud of their spirit of innovation, while admitting they have really "invented" very little. |
laundry list of things Saab either did first, or made workable first,
and you disregard them as trivial and/or not purely original. Then
let's pretend that we played word games and bullshit over the definition
of "invented" and got nowhere. (whew) just saved 3 iterations of posts.
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Once they acquired the knowledge transfer for the Triumph OHC engine, they continued to develop it and refine it, but this is similar to what all of their competitors have done as well, and unless you can suggest otherwise, I see no reason to consider the product very differently from that of the competition. |
#25
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There you go again. Here let's pretend I researched and posted a laundry list of things Saab either did first, or made workable first, and you disregard them as trivial and/or not purely original. Then let's pretend that we played word games and bullshit over the definition of "invented" and got nowhere. (whew) just saved 3 iterations of posts. |
Rather than prentending we did all kinds of reasearch we haven't really done,
and came up with all kinds of astonishing results that are not really
demonstrable, a more rational approach would be to look at the intentions and
acheivements of the marque. Saab began as a diversification effort for an
aircraft manufacturer who saw their market eroding at the end of WWII. Their
intention was unabashedly to make the most economical car they could, and their
model was the DKW. Through the 1960's their production could be compared with
the most economical cars available on the market. As they sought to move their
market to a more global stature, Saab, like other European maunfacturers, felt
they needed to make a market shift upwards, partly to make more inroads on the
US market. The 99 models had lots of teething problems, but did manage to move
the car into the doctors' and lawyers' court, largely through a slightly
"offbeat" design program that fit with Americans' taste for things European at
that time, as well as a spirit of innovation and a demonstrable concern for
safety features. They did a remarkably good job of maintaining this spirit and
image through the 900 model years, but the iconoclast image increasingly became
a "niche" market, unable to fulfill their global sales objectives. No longer
able to subsist in a world market, on the basis of their sales alone, they were
acquired by GM, who have until now striven to preserve the appeal of the marque
whilst applying a "rational" program of supply, manufacture and distribution.
Automobile manufacture today comprising very few real trade secrets, there is
absolutely nothing wrong with an Opel Astra car and a Japanese engine with a
slightly "remodeled" Saab exterior, even if, inevitably, the car begins to look
more and more like the banal, mix-and-match production it has become.
I don't see anything wrong with this story, except for the unhappy ending. I
regret, as you probably do, that this slightly unusual, forward-looking
approach could not, in today's market, be greeted with better success, but this
is not sufficient for me to subscribe to every sort of mythology about the
marque, or to ascribe to them all sorts of secret inventions, so sophisticated
as to be as yet impenetrable to the rest of the industry, not the least of
which is the reciprocating piston engine not subject to the types of wear their
bretheren suffer, and thus capable of lasting "forever".
GF
#26
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Why should I not "lump everyone's design together" when that's exactly what GM (the manufacturer of SAAB) has been doing since 1994? Because this car does not belong in the post 94 GM world of one lump |
--
Carl Robson
Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
Now Playing at home:She Wants Revenge-these things (radio edit)
#27
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By the same token my Dad bought a Fiat in '75 about two weeks after I was bought. Before Ebay banned the sale of organs, pets and children? |
Carl Robson
Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
Now Playing at home:She Wants Revenge-these things (radio edit)
#28
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In article <4sf12vFv3427U1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net>, DaveHinz (AT) gmail (DOT) com says... There you go again. Here let's pretend I researched and posted a laundry list of things Saab either did first, or made workable first, and you disregard them as trivial and/or not purely original. Then let's pretend that we played word games and bullshit over the definition of "invented" and got nowhere. (whew) just saved 3 iterations of posts. Rather than prentending we did all kinds of reasearch we haven't really done, and came up with all kinds of astonishing results that are not really demonstrable, a more rational approach would be to look at the intentions and acheivements of the marque. |
the topic. But by all means, do go on and on with your interpretation
of that which some of us know possibly better than you; go ahead, we're
all waiting with, um, varying degrees of interest I suppose.
You're also apparently unaware that sometimes ones doesn't have to to
"research" on a topic, if they already know about it. Do I have to
"research" that a workable turbo went into production in 1977?
(insert quibble about the word "production", go ahead if you must).
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Saab began as a diversification effort for an aircraft manufacturer who saw their market eroding at the end of WWII. Their intention was unabashedly to make the most economical car they could, and their model was the DKW. |
"google", another called "wikipedia", and a third being direct personal
experience. You would benefit from applying any of them.
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I don't see anything wrong with this story, except for the unhappy ending. I regret, as you probably do, that this slightly unusual, forward-looking approach could not, in today's market, be greeted with better success, but this is not sufficient for me to subscribe to every sort of mythology about the marque, or to ascribe to them all sorts of secret inventions, so sophisticated as to be as yet impenetrable to the rest of the industry, not the least of which is the reciprocating piston engine not subject to the types of wear their bretheren suffer, and thus capable of lasting "forever". |
"forever" word. So what did you think about the high mileage
listings? Yes, on a cosmic time scale, these cars don't last "forever",
nobody has claimed otherwise.
Did you have any facts to add to the discussion, or should I just expect
you to come up with more errors like your claim about Saab making a
model called the DKW...
#29
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Did you have any facts to add to the discussion, or should I just expect you to come up with more errors like your claim about Saab making a model called the DKW... |
and including the 96 model
Ken
Saabfreak!
88 900T SportsPack 8v (Battleship Galactica)
'72 99 2.0 CM4 (Old Git)
'96 9000T CSE
'93 900 16v SE LPT (F**king Shed!)
'83 99 5spd
#30
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In article <ejqhdg$gr7$2 (AT) biggoron (DOT) nerim.net>, farris (AT) nasa (DOT) org says... Why should I not "lump everyone's design together" when that's exactly what GM (the manufacturer of SAAB) has been doing since 1994? Because this car does not belong in the post 94 GM world of one lump fits all. |
The later the Saab, the more generic - but that's not to say there are not
still different and unique features in '94 onwards Saabs.
--
The DervMan
www.dervman.com
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