I guess that depends upon what's meant by not needing them. If people find
that they're crabbing down the road sideways, almost loosing it due to a gust
of wind, or getting stuck in their own driveway ... then I'd say they need
them.

What prompted me in starting the thread was that I was driving behind someone
in a newer Toyota Echo (or something), driving 30 mph down a straight road when
suddenly the rear end broke loose, and she almost lost it. Was it a gust of
wind, a snowball, or snow snake? I just went into the snowy lane and drove
around. No worries.

I've driven in the snow on performance summer tires ... it's no fun and I've
seen the light. If you have the means, I highly recommend them !

jw
milwaukee

tomcas <tomcas (AT) NOSPAMmjwebsitedesign (DOT) com> wrote

you mean unless you are driving a front wheel drive.....
rear drive is much better than front drive
all wheel drive is the best
subaru are the best of all wheel drive vehicles
A subaru with 4 snow tires is the best of the best
))))))

"Fun Travel Club" <nooospam (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote

Gotta be a troll!!

Give me front wheel anyday.

The toyota pu 4x4 sits in the garage on nasty icy road days unless the wife
leaves hers in the garage(age thing) then she takes the scoobie and I get
the toyota. Front wheel has much better traction than rear, plus won't
break away on you in a gust of wind, etc.

BTW: live in ND so icy roads are an everyday occurance, love watching the
non natives in their 4x4's who think going is all there is to bad road
driving. Fun to watch the "rodeo" when they attempt to stop.

Four boxes protect our freedom: the soap box, the
ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Most tire shops in my region (Montreal, Canada) offer to store your
tires (winter tires in the summer, and all-season in winter) for a
small price. Also, my Subaru dealer said that they store tires for
clients for free (if you buy tires from them I suppose).

"J999w" <j999w (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote

A lot of people have made some good points that I agree with.

First, I too live in a condominium tower in Toronto and have no place to
store snow tires for my '03 Legacy GT sedan.

Second, unlike many of the other yahoos on the road, I adjust my driving
style to the current weather conditions: I do not drive the same in the
winter as I do the summer. I suspect that people who complain that their
car handles like crap without snow tires aren't adjusting their driving
accordingly.

Third, we are under a winter storm right now and most of the cowboys driving
around as though they were invincible are all in Escalades, Navigators and
Jeeps. Not surprisingly, these are the people I always see in the ditch
first.....because they didn't adjust for the driving conditions!!!!!

Finally, if I didn't own an AWD car I would only ever consider driving a FWD
car. I agree that they are prone to understeer.....which can be corrected
by not goosing the car while cornering in the snow. With a bit of practice
(in emergency situations of course) the use of the hand parking brake can
correct the understeer quite handily.

Again, I think that people should just accept the fact that the roads are
not always dry and bare and DRIVE ACCORDINGLY!!!

pheasant <kiavan02 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Front wheel drive understeers terrible.
a bit of over steer in a rear wheel will get you around ramps and curves
Understeer sends you to the ditch every time.
Every snow storm in Ontario you see ditches full of front drive cars.
That is the truth meter.
They always have the slowest rally times in performance rally .......
where traction is the ultimate decision maker against a stop watch.
Front wheel slowest times, rear next best times, 4 wheel fastest times.
Front wheel drive = 70% of your breaking, all of your steering and all of
your drive motion on 2 front wheels.......it just does not work good.
I have 43 years of driving experience, no crashes, no accidents.
Have driven professional rally.
Crewed for 10 years consecutive north american pro production rally champion
too. (Nial Leslie)1979 to 1989
My rear wheel drives where always better.
my neon and saturn front wheelers were terrible in the snow.
I left them home many times and drove my rear wheel drive safari van.


hills.
It looks really funny


and the cartridge box.
no guns thanks.
"in defence of the country to bear arms" , not shoot your neighbour.

Cost...

I agree; The first winter in my GT wgn with the new RE92s was better than my
Mazda Protege had been with four new snows, and fun in different ways, too.
After less than one year of use (April 1st-->Thanksgiving), the RE92s were worn
enough @ ~ 16000 miles :-( that I'd rather have had the Protege with four good
snows. This lack of traction "forced me to order" four WRX take-off rims with
Blizzak LM22's from TireRack. They are now in their second winter, and I expect
them to last 2 more. Next year, I will get a set of 4 snows for my wife's
Special Edition L sedan, and I will likely go with the LM22s again. I used 4
Blizzak WS-50s on my Protege, my wife's Civic, and both our Mazda 323's before
that (damn I've bought a lot of those critters!), and they are a bit too soft
on dry roads for other than commuting usage. In fact, the LM22s are better in
rain than the '92's are now...
IMHO, awd is a huge bonus vs fwd, or rwd; at least if all else is equal. As
I've experienced it, a fwd with good rubber meeting the road is better than awd
with inadequate rubber. And of course we won't talk about a light weight, rwd
truck or wgn. TG it has been a while, but I won't *ever* have one of those
again!
Terry - '02 Regatta-Red GT wagon 5spd - 25,000 miles
'03 Silver Legacy SE auto-sedan - 2450 miles
Yakima / TandeMover / Rockymount rack
To reply, get rid of the "nonsense"

Good luck to those around these parts without 'em. 6 more inches of snow in
the last 24 hours.

Woooo Hoooo !!

jw
milwaukee
(off to ski again !)

Frank Pyatt <frpyatt (AT) yahoo (DOT) ca> wrote

ok you drive a new corolla fwd and ill drive an older rwd corolla on the
same tires
and ill drive circles around you in toronto or missisauga


I agree that they are prone to understeer.....which can be corrected
everyone knows that
lift off the gas and it gets worse not better in a fwd car

With a bit of practice
hand brake turns are common for good drivers in any circumstance
full hand brake on and full throttle in a fwd drive car can make nice
donuts in the snow

"No Way" <yes (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.tw> wrote

Lifting will weight the _front_ wheels (as will downshifting or
braking). This is why front-wheel drive is "idiot proof"...folks
panic, lift off the gas and/or brake, weight shifts toward the front
wheels, and traction is (hopefully) regained.

Personally, I despise front-drive. Correcting from oversteer is
instinctive, IMHO.

Here's a myth that annoys me. "Front-drive cars have better traction
due to their having more weight over the front wheels". Consider
this. A Honda Accord with a less-than-ideal 60/40 weight distribution
probably has _less_ weight over the driven wheels than the
well-balanced, slightly heavier 3-series BMW with 50/50 weight
distribution.