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Why don't people buy snow tires?
Subaru Subaru vehicles (alt.autos.subaru)
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#31
 
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Re: Why don't people buy snow tires? -
01-31-2004
, 11:36 AM
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And in pro rally where traction is the ultimate judge For experienced professional drivers on a closed circuit... NO it transfers to drivers on the road |
FWD has less traction
End of story
Get used to it
sheesh
Quote:
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Front drives have the slowest times in stages Real wheel drive next best times 4 wheels are higher average speeds Front drives are just plain crap in the snow The front ends wiggle side to side up hills like a hula dancer and dont move. It is quite funny |
#32
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Cam Penner Cam.Penner.news1ATpleasedontspamgold...mail (DOT) com> wrote in message And in pro rally where traction is the ultimate judge For experienced professional drivers on a closed circuit... NO it transfers to drivers on the road same situation FWD has less traction |
towards the front. (big heavy engine). This places more
weight over the front wheels.
As a result, on a level surface, the front wheels of the
car have more traction available to them (assuming same
tire size and type on all 4 corners). This means that a
FWD car can deliver more power to the road before wheelspin
than a RWD car. Simple physics. Ff = u x Fn. As Fn
increases with the weight, so does the Ff, which we all
know is the traction available.
This begins to change as the car accelerates. The weight
will begin to transfer rearward, and the front wheels begin
to lose traction, and the rear wheels begin to gain
traction. When the weight bias passes 50/50, the RWD car
has the advantage under acceleration. Again, simple
physics.
Most drivers on the road on a day to day basis do NOT
accelerate hard enough in slippery conditions (and
prudently so) to initiate enough weight transfer to give
RWD a traction advantage. Competition drivers, without
things like pedestrians and other unpredictable traffic to
worry them, can. This is why RWD shows an advantage in
racing.
Hills upset the balance somewhat, as they simulate the
weight transfer of acceleration. This makes FWD have less
drive wheel traction, and RWD have more on uphill starts.
It also gives FWD better acceleration on downhill starts.
(which is rather a moot point in everyday driving)
Corners make a difference too. Under acceleration, FWD
cars have less traction when cornering than RWD. They are
splitting their available traction between acceleration and
steering. This promotes understeer when traction is lost.
RWD cars don't have that limitation on the front, but split
traction the same way at the rear. This is slightly less
likely to cause loss of traction, but it does. Rear wheels
have to split traction between acceleration and cornering.
The result of this traction loss is oversteer. In general,
understeer is easier to recover from than oversteer.
Under braking or coasting, all things are equal between the
2. When decelerating in gear with no brakes applied, RWD
has the advantage of leaving the front wheels with full
traction for cornering, and using the braking force on the
rear wheels only.
Having said all this, I think I can sum it up rather
simply.
1) Both FWD and RWD begin with the same amount of
traction. They just make use of it differently, and have
advantages and disadvantages in various situations.
2) The advantages FWD offers tend to line up with everyday
drivers in everyday situations. RWD offers advantages to
those that push the limits.
3) AWD tends to offer both the advantages and
disadvantages of both, netting out to the best possible
experience (in most worlds).
--
Cam
'02 RS
#33
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Most drivers on the road on a day to day basis do NOT accelerate hard enough in slippery conditions (and prudently so) to initiate enough weight transfer to give RWD a traction advantage. Competition drivers, without things like pedestrians and other unpredictable traffic to worry them, can. This is why RWD shows an advantage in racing. |
wet and I'm first in line behind a crosswalk or stop line.
When I accelerate, the front tires will slip on the wet painted
line. I've tried starting out of 2nd gear to avoid slipping.
#34
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Cam Penner <Cam.Penner.news1ATpleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems. com (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Most drivers on the road on a day to day basis do NOT accelerate hard enough in slippery conditions (and prudently so) to initiate enough weight transfer to give RWD a traction advantage. Competition drivers, without things like pedestrians and other unpredictable traffic to worry them, can. This is why RWD shows an advantage in racing. Well - the one big disadvantage of FWD for me is when it's wet and I'm first in line behind a crosswalk or stop line. When I accelerate, the front tires will slip on the wet painted line. I've tried starting out of 2nd gear to avoid slipping. |
--
Cam
#35
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BTW, on the Snow Tires topic: we just bought our first after-factory set of tires this fall, and we bought Bridgestone "Turanza"s. Okay, I admit it: I bought into the whole spiel the salesguy was dishing out. But they sounded really cool. And so far, I have to say, they seem pretty aggressively invinciple on our steep driveway and backroads in snow. |
I got them too, for my 97 OB, several years ago, and like them.
Much better handling that the OEM Michelins. No way to compare
on snow, since it is rare here and never drove the Michelins.
They were/are fairly cheap too, and I still have lots of tread
left at 50K (but I think a belt has shifted since I have gotten
them balanced and still have a shimmy).
Anyhow, I'm tempted to get another set of Turanzas, but wondering
if I should look at something else.
Thanks, John
#36
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Re: Why don't people buy snow tires? From: Cam Penner>> Well - the one big disadvantage of FWD for me is when it's wet and I'm first in line behind a crosswalk or stop line. When I accelerate, the front tires will slip on the wet painted line. I've tried starting out of 2nd gear to avoid slipping. The solution, of course, is to stop behind the line.... -- Cam |
had T/C).
Terry - '02 Regatta-Red GT wagon 5spd - 25,000 miles
'03 Silver Legacy SE auto-sedan - 2450 miles
Yakima / TandeMover / Rockymount rack
To reply, get rid of the "nonsense"
#37
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BTW, on the Snow Tires topic: we just bought our first after-factory set of tires this fall, and we bought Bridgestone "Turanza"s. Okay, I admit it: I bought into the whole spiel the salesguy was dishing out. But they sounded really cool. And so far, I have to say, they seem pretty aggressively invinciple on our steep driveway and backroads in snow. What was this "spiel" that sounded really cool ? |
rubber supposedly wears in such a way that they have more traction when
worn, so have a longer useful tread life. This is a concern because our
gravel road routinely eats up tires inside 25,000 miles.
He flat-out promised me it would feel like a whole new car. I was
skeptical by the time I was on the way home, and feeling a little
sheepish for the next couple of weeks about falling for it -- but then
we got lots of snow, and hey, it _does_ feel like a whole new car! It
just _goes_.
#38
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John Eyles <jge (AT) cs (DOT) unc.edu> wrote: BTW, on the Snow Tires topic: we just bought our first after-factory set of tires this fall, and we bought Bridgestone "Turanza"s. Okay, I admit it: I bought into the whole spiel the salesguy was dishing out. But they sounded really cool. And so far, I have to say, they seem pretty aggressively invinciple on our steep driveway and backroads in snow. What was this "spiel" that sounded really cool ? Most aggressively tractiony in wet and icy conditions, and that the rubber supposedly wears in such a way that they have more traction when worn, so have a longer useful tread life. This is a concern because our gravel road routinely eats up tires inside 25,000 miles. He flat-out promised me it would feel like a whole new car. I was skeptical by the time I was on the way home, and feeling a little sheepish for the next couple of weeks about falling for it -- but then we got lots of snow, and hey, it _does_ feel like a whole new car! It just _goes_. Hi, |
of a tire.
Tony
#39
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Re: Why don't people buy snow tires? The solution, of course, is to stop behind the line.... -- Cam Or get a car with Traction Control |
Traction control?
My 2004 Impreza wagon has 4 new snow tires.
I can tromp on the throttle to the floor in the first 3 gears in snow up to
25cm deep and it just digs in and goes until I am over 140 k's where i
decide to shift to 5th gear and slow down.
That is traction control.
#40
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Traction control? My 2004 Impreza wagon has 4 new snow tires. I can tromp on the throttle to the floor in the first 3 gears in snow up to 25cm deep and it just digs in and goes until I am over 140 k's where i decide to shift to 5th gear and slow down. That is traction control. |
brake on the inside rear wheel to correct.
--
Dominic Richens | dominic (AT) alumni (DOT) uottawa.ca
"If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"
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