I just bought a 1994 Camry LE 3.0L and it failed the Ontario Vehicle
Emissions Inspection to my surprise. It went from barely failing to a
major headache. Hope someone can explain to me what is going on
here.

Here are the results of the tests...

March 16th, 2007 - Nothing done to the car. Bought the car and drove
it directly to the testing center.

ASM2525 TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 57..... reading: 89..... FAIL
CO %........ limt: 0.32... reading: 0.31.. pass
NO ppm..... limit: 421... reading: 9...... pass
RPM: 1683..... valid
Dilution: 15.0.. valid

CURB IDLE TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 200.... reading: 30..... pass
CO %........ limt: 1.00.... reading: 0.01.. pass
NO ppm..... N/A.... reading: N/A
RPM: 705...... valid
Dilution: 14.9.. valid

March 30th, 2007 - Was told that it had barely failed so not much was
needed to make it pass so I did an oil change, replaced the PCV valve
and added "Guaranteed To Pass" to the fuel and drive it for a week to
burn empty the gas tank. Refilled using Super gas and went for a new
test. To my surprise, most readings went up.

ASM2525 TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 57...... reading: 106.... FAIL
CO %........ limt: 0.32.... reading: 0.28... pass
NO ppm..... limit: 421.... reading: 18..... pass
RPM: 1659..... valid
Dilution: 15.0.. valid

CURB IDLE TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 200.... reading: 93..... pass
CO %........ limt: 1.00.... reading: 0.11.. pass
NO ppm..... N/A.... reading: N/A
RPM: 901...... valid
Dilution: 14.8.. valid

After the 2nd failed testing, I brought the car in to have an Emission
Analysis done to help find the cause of the problem. This was the
result of the analysis...

Needs catalytic converter, working at 50%, should be 75% minimum (pre-
readings HC118 & CO.41 - post readings HC68 & CO.05).

With that info and with the opinion of a mechanic, I bought a new
direct-fit converter along with an O2 sensor (the one after the cat)
and had the parts installed by another shop. I drove the car for
about 4 days (70 km total) and headed to the testing center again.

April 20th, 2007 - The results below are after I had a new direct-fit
converter installed along with a new O2 sensor (after the cat). I
couldn't believe what I was seeing. I'm told those numbers basically
means the catalytic converter is missing or inoperative.

ASM2525 TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 57...... reading: 215.... FAIL
CO %........ limt: 0.32.... reading: 0.51... FAIL
NO ppm..... limit: 421.... reading: 548.... FAIL
RPM: 1652..... valid
Dilution: 14.5.. valid

CURB IDLE TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 200.... reading: 289.. FAIL
CO %........ limt: 1.00.... reading: 0.40.. pass
NO ppm..... N/A.... reading: N/A
RPM: 702...... valid
Dilution: 14.0.. valid

One explanation given to me for the above readings after having a new
cat installed was that I hadn't driven it enough to "burn-in" the
cat. I was told to go take a long drive (4 hour of highway driving)
and re-test it. I did that and as you can see below, it did not help.

April 21st, 2007

ASM2525 TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 57...... reading: 204.... FAIL
CO %........ limt: 0.32.... reading: 0.53... FAIL
NO ppm..... limit: 421.... reading: 1215.. FAIL
RPM: 1803..... valid
Dilution: 13.98.. valid

CURB IDLE TEST
HC ppm..... limit: 200.... reading: 288... FAIL
CO %........ limt: 1.00.... reading: 0.39... pass
NO ppm..... N/A.... reading: N/A
RPM: 703...... valid
Dilution: 13.65.. valid

Of all the mechanics I spoke to, none believe that the new cat is
defective. One of the mechanics who worked on the car said he noticed
the front pipe before the cat was welded to seal a leak and believes
it is leaking. The car runs smooth and silent so I'm a bit sceptical
of this. Furthermore, why would the numbers skyrocket after changing
the cat if the problem is with a pre-existing leak?

Help me as I have sunk way too much money on something that appeared
to be minor at the onset.

<lukus2005 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Some things to note:

"Guaranteed to Pass" and other additives that are supposed to cure a problem
rarely, if ever, work. If the stuff is guaranteed, get your money back.

A catalytic converter does not have to be "burned in" to work.

From your initial emissions test results, the high HC was likely due to
ignition misfire. If the spark plugs and ignition wires have more than
60,000 miles or are an aftermarket brand, I recommend that you replace them
with OEM parts.
As far as your emissions test results after replacing the catalytic
converter, I would say the replacement catalytic converter is defective and
not working. An exhaust leak would not cause the readings you are not
experiencing. The catalytic converter that you took off the vehicle was
probably good, and it was replaced with one that is not good.

The shops where you have been taking your car for repair apparently know
little about emission control systems. I recommend that you take your car
to a Toyota dealer or a shop with ASE certified technicians for diagnosis
and repair in the future. Unfortunately, it looks like a relatively simple
fix has turned into an expensive one.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote

<...>

It seems more accurate to say, an expensive non-fix.

jeff

"Jeff" <news (AT) googlemail (DOT) com> wrote

--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

< snipped >
Not clear on what you are saying... are you saying the new converter
is probably working fine and not the problem? If that is what you are
saying, then goes against what Ray O believes.

This car has 2 sensors ahead of the cat. Again Ray O does not believe
that a leak would affect the reading drastically like I have
experienced after installing a new cat.

I paid for an Emission Analysis in the hope of finding what is faulty
on the emission system... I would hope the EGR valve was one of the
component tested.

Is it the same O2 sensor used before and have the cat? If so, then I
could simply switch the back one with one of the front ones?

The car was driven for almost 4 hours when I took it directly to the
test center... It was as hot as can be.

I thank you all for you good advice. Only problem with taking it to
the dealership now is that the reason I bought a used car to begin
with and bought the parts myself was to save money. I'm at a point
where I have sunk $1000 in trying to get this car on the road and
despite all the advice from on here and from various mechanics, I seem
no closer to figuring out what is wrong and who screwed me. :-(

On Apr 26, 7:06 am, "lukus2... (AT) gmail (DOT) com" <lukus2... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
I seem
I think it's fairly obvious the new cat is not working as well as the
old one.
I saw the same thing when I changed the cat on my accord. The scores
actually got worse. This leads me to believe many of the aftermarket
cats are not nearly as efficient as the OEM versions. Any exhaust leak
large enough to cause a problem should be hearable, if you know how
it sounded before. If no audible difference, I doubt that is the
problem.
Judging from your first test, all I can see was you might have been
running a tad rich, or had a misfire. The worse score was at speed,
so that tends to lean more towards a misfire I would think.
But you have to look at the whole system. IE: if the temp sensor
was out, that could cause a rich mix if it stayed in open loop.
Sorry to say, but the cat was a total waste of money. "I went through
the same thing".
You need to find out why it's slightly rich, or misfiring, and that
will
probably do it.. I'd seriously consider asking for a refund or
replacement
on the cat. It's obviously not working worth a hoot.. They have a min
25k mile warranty.
The bad part is, even if you fix the *real* problem, I bet you now
will
have trouble passing due to the poor functioning cat..
I know one thing, if I ever change a OEM cat, I'm going to request
that I can keep the original. Actually, if I ever change an OEM cat
again, it's probably going to be another OEM cat, even though the
cost is very high. I'm totally convinced that many of the aftermarket
cats suck. IE: the new maremont cat I bought did worse than the 18
year old OEM that was on the car. Ain't that some crap?
I've found that cats usually don't go bad unless they have been abused
with a rich mixture, misfires, etc for a good while.
So I've been leaning towards always looking at the cat as one of the
"last resorts"..
I feel for ya.. You had a simple fix, that was buggered up by
incompetant
mechanics. I think they should pay to correct the problem, being they
misdiagnosed it.
I know for a fact that many mechanics are lost in space when it comes
to emissions repair.. They tend to poke and guess... And you end up
paying the price which keeps going up, up, up, due to their
incompetance.
Also some shops will quote a price to fix, and inspect, and end up not
fixing the real problem, and then they "fake" the test by using
another
car.. Then the next year, you get to start the same sick cycle all
over
again. I've gone through this myself... I eventually bought the
books, etc
to learn to do it myself. I had a chevy monte carlo that went through
this. They poke and guess, new carb, new this, new that, and it
still failed, but they faked it through..So I had to deal with it
again the
next year.. I had to fix it myself... The *real* problem?
The two "air" pump hoses were routed backwards.... I corrected
that, and it blew a score so low, I almost wet myself.
MK

On Apr 26, 9:40 am, "Ph@Boy" <u... (AT) example (DOT) net> wrote:
Is it possible that the shop that did the Emission Analysis unhooked
or messed up something as they were the only one to have worked on the
car prior to replacing the cat and seeing the readings shoot way up.
I also noticed that they never replaced the plastic engine cover and
it's now missing.

<lukus2005 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

In my experience, OEM catalytic converters have a very low failure rate,
while bad aftermarket converters are not that uncommon. There are sosme
very expensive metals inside the cat, which is why they are so expensive.
Automakers have to warrant them for at least 80,000 miles now so OEM cats
are pretty reliable, I suspect that one of the reasons aftermarket cats
cost so much less is that they use a much thinner coating of those expensive
metals.

An exhaust leak can affect the performance of emissions controls, however,
they are usually audible, and the testing station is supposed to check for
exhaust leaks before performing the emissions test.

A simple check for an exhaust leak is to take a bunched up rag and hold it
against the tailpipe while the engine is idling. It should be very
difficult to stop the exhaust coming out of the tailpipe, and there should
be no increase in exhaust noise.

I doubt if the shop checked the operation of the EGR valve. More likely,
they plugged in a scan tool or used an exhaust probe to take readings. A
problem with the EGR valve would have caused high NOx readings and/or
driveability problems.

Whether the O2 sensor is the same before and after the cat varies by
vehicle. You can check part numbers at an auto parts store or dealer.

I think your best chances to get thee car fixed at this point are either
take it to a Toyota dealer or invest in a volt/ohm meter, available for
under $40 at Radio Shack and a Haynes, Chilton's, or factory repair manual .
You can check just about every electrical component in a vehicle with a
meter, including the O2 sensors.

To check the performance of the replacement cat, a shop with an exhaust
analyzer will have to probe the exhaust ahead of and aft of the cat to see
if it is working.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)