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Re: no wonder the US auto industry is dying
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#11
 
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Re: no wonder the US auto industry is dying -
10-18-2005
, 01:19 PM
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"Merritt Mullen" <mmullen8014 (AT) mchsi (DOT) com> wrote in message news:mmullen8014-75592F.17024017102005 (AT) netnews (DOT) asp.att.net... In article <xn0e8lsbtizacu005 (AT) news (DOT) readfreenews.net>, "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Unions at their best... Unbelievable. Unions? It was management who made the deal. In the not to distant past what choice did GM have. The UAW had organized all the US vehicle producers. The UAW only threatened to strike one manufacturer at a time. If you were GM management, and the Union said give us X, or we will strike you and let Ford and Chrysler keep producing what would you do? You are going to loose sales permanently when Customers can't get your cars and turns to your competitors. Plus the UAW made it clear, whatever deal you made, they would force Ford and Chrysler to accept similar deals. As long as the UAW could force all manufacturers to accept the same deal, no one manufacturer was likely to hold out and cripple themselves. Unfortunately for GM the world has changed. GM now has to compete with many more companies, some with non-union workers. The past sweetheart deals with the UAW are now killing GM. I suppose you can blame GMs management for not foreseeing the future, but I can't see how a CEO could set by and let the UAW shut them down for months while the competitors cranked cars out as fast as they could. The UAW does not have the same power over the foreign brands. Even for foreign brands, like Honda, that have Union shops, threats from the UAW are not as scary. If the UAW struck Honda, they would just shift production to overseas factories. They might not be able to keep the supply lines as full as they would like, but at least they would have something to sell. I really only see three ways to fix the problem - 1) Have the US government take over health care - politically impossible 2) Prevent Unions from monopolizing an industry - politically impossible 3) Allow US manufacturers to create an industry wide block to negotiate with the Union (if one manufacturer is struck, they all shut down) - at least in the past this was illegal (although it seems coal mine operators and railway operators do exactly this). 4) Let GM go belly up - who will you guys work for when all the US manufacturers are out of business? On a positive note, it is only a matter of time before the Chinese destroy the Japanese car industry.I suppose the Japanese will continue to protect their domestic market (which we aren't willing to do), but sooner or later the low labor cost of non-union Chinese workers will overwhelm the Japanese in all open markets (i.e., mostly the US and the under-developed world). Ed |
#12
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You fire everyone and start fresh...... |
it might save Ford.
Ed White
#13
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Sounds like a mangment problem not a union problem.  mike hunt "ron" <really good (AT) serviceu (DOT) com> wrote in message news:EeU4f.1870$dO2.1146 (AT) newssvr29 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... This sounds typical. In the 60's, here in No California, I belonged to Operating Engineers Union. I was gradesetting (setting guide stakes for equipment to get the slopes/grades right). The union had a classification for "Journeyman trainee". Purpose was (supposedly) improve the skills levels. Most of the time they sat on cutslope watching. When I tried to get one of them to work with me (I got same pay as operators) to learn my field, there was all kinds of excuses from the boss (let the SOB sit), the worker (its to hot, can't walk that much in my cowboy boots, no shade) (equipment all had shades/umbrellas). And my favorite one from the union Business Agent "its to complicated to expect them to know/learn any math". Ah the good old days! But I made good money cause of it! Ron |
#14
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It becomes a union problem when there are no jobs. You can blame management all you want, but you still have no job. Blame management some more, but you still have no job. I suppose if the Union workers were really motivated, they would buy the bankrupt company and run it themselves. This has been done before - successfully :-) Mike Hunter wrote: Sounds like a mangment problem not a union problem. mike hunt |
fine company it once was, and pay its workers the same wage and benefits
as the foreign manufacturers do domestically. And please, don't someone
tell me how the imports are screwing the poor American worker. I live a
few miles from the Georgetown Camry plant, and people fight for those
jobs.
#15
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The only way for GM to save itself is to die, then resurrect itself as the fine company it once was, and pay its workers the same wage and benefits as the foreign manufacturers do domestically. And please, don't someone tell me how the imports are screwing the poor American worker. I live a few miles from the Georgetown Camry plant, and people fight for those jobs. |
of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly believe
that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their
reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair gap
in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term.
#16
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GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a minimum of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly believe that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their |
#17
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Sean Elkins wrote: The only way for GM to save itself is to die, then resurrect itself as the fine company it once was, and pay its workers the same wage and benefits as the foreign manufacturers do domestically. And please, don't someone tell me how the imports are screwing the poor American worker. I live a few miles from the Georgetown Camry plant, and people fight for those jobs. GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a minimum of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly believe that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair gap in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term. |
#18
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GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a minimum of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly believe that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair gap in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term. |
job is at a plant with thousands of cars in the parking lot. I'll bet there
are not 5 Toyotas more than 10 years old in the lots on any given day
(versus 100s of newer ones). There are many old US cars in the lots. I know
this is non-scientific, but I just don't see the number of old Japanese cars
that the claims of "super" reliability suggest there should be. Over the
last 30 years my family, close friends, and myself have owned a large
selection of cars from most major manufacturers. Nothing in our collective
personal experience indicates that Japanese cars in general are particularly
reliable or long lasting (assuming similar treatment and maintenance). In
fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Again, non-scientific, but anytime
someone makes the claim that Japanese cars are super reliable and last
forever, I just have to ask myself how come I don't personally know of even
one that is so great. My SO drove a Camry wagon to 250,000 miles, but it was
a POS when she finally dumped it. She has now driven a Plymouth mini-van to
similar mileage, and it is in far better shape than the Camry was at the
same stage of it's life (not that it is great). I have personally owned
Mazdas, Datsuns, and Toyotas and none have been all that reliable. And I
noticed that even the Lexus dealer has a service department full of broken
cars.
I just want someone to show me some proof that Japanese cars are sooooo much
better than GM cars (or Fords for that matter). Until I see some sort of
proof (and I don't mean the Consumer Reports or JD Powers popularity
contests) I am just going to mark the legend of Japanese auto quality as
advertising driven hype.
Ed
#19
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#20
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What about resale value? That's the market telling you a Honda or Toyota is worth a much higher % of original value than a GM or Ford. I've seen 5 year old Hondas with 100K miles for sale for 10.5K (US $). That's about 1/2 original price. Somehow the market thinks they hold their value. |
whether they are or aren't. My Sister has owned two Hondas. Her current
Civic is decent, if not spectacular. It is 9 years old and definitely looks
it (paint falling off, interior dull, minor oil leaks, but nothing too bad).
I'd say it and my 14 year old F150 are in about the same condition. Her
prior Honda (an Accord) was more troublesome. Rust was a problem, and if you
drove fast (say 75) the front doors would start whistling like a banshee.
She likes Hondas, but if she was honest, she would have to admit the two
Fords she owned were just as reliable. Why does she like Hondas? I have no
idea. She hates Toyotas, so it can't be a Japanese car thing. My Parents
have not owned anything but Fords for at least 40 years. I doubt if they
have spent as much as $500 on repairs on any one car in all that time. My
Mother's last two Grand Marquis ('92, and '00) have never even been back to
the dealer for any sort of repair. Can you do any better than no problems? I
keep trying different brands, but it is very difficult to evaluate changes
in the quality of cars if you are trying to compare a 2001 Toyota to a 1965
Chevrolet - which is the sort of comparison I think a lot of Toyota / Honda
owners like to make.
Ed
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