Re: no wonder the US auto industry is dying

#21

I owned of a 1982 Honda Accord Hatchback and a 93 Camry. Right now I drive a
98 Camry. The Honda was bought new and the Camrys were bought with 234K and
200K kms respectively. I have owned 2 Plymouth Voyagers (from 1989 until 2
1/2 years ago) and a few other North American cars. What I'm going to say is
NOT scientific but the Japanese cars are tighter. I repeat: TIGHTER and give
a nicer ride.

Sorry if you hate top posting. Who likes to scroll down. ;-)

"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"High Tech Misfit" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:13q5h4mbf62n$.dlg (AT) hightech (DOT) misfit...

GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a
minimum
of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly
believe
that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their
reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair
gap
in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term.

I would love for you or someone to prove that this assertion is true. My
day
job is at a plant with thousands of cars in the parking lot. I'll bet
there
are not 5 Toyotas more than 10 years old in the lots on any given day
(versus 100s of newer ones). There are many old US cars in the lots. I
know
this is non-scientific, but I just don't see the number of old Japanese
cars
that the claims of "super" reliability suggest there should be. Over the
last 30 years my family, close friends, and myself have owned a large
selection of cars from most major manufacturers. Nothing in our collective
personal experience indicates that Japanese cars in general are
particularly
reliable or long lasting (assuming similar treatment and maintenance). In
fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Again, non-scientific, but anytime
someone makes the claim that Japanese cars are super reliable and last
forever, I just have to ask myself how come I don't personally know of
even
one that is so great. My SO drove a Camry wagon to 250,000 miles, but it
was
a POS when she finally dumped it. She has now driven a Plymouth mini-van
to
similar mileage, and it is in far better shape than the Camry was at the
same stage of it's life (not that it is great). I have personally owned
Mazdas, Datsuns, and Toyotas and none have been all that reliable. And I
noticed that even the Lexus dealer has a service department full of broken
cars.

I just want someone to show me some proof that Japanese cars are sooooo
much
better than GM cars (or Fords for that matter). Until I see some sort of
proof (and I don't mean the Consumer Reports or JD Powers popularity
contests) I am just going to mark the legend of Japanese auto quality as
advertising driven hype.

Ed

#22

"Scott in Florida" <JustAsk (AT) Florida (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

My scientific study in my driveway.....

2 older Toyotos

92 Corolla Wagon
97 Corolla Sedan

both are like new cars.

Like a new '92 Toyota, or a new '05 Toyota? And what does "like new" mean
anyhow? My 14 year old F150 is like new in most respects - except for the
dent in the right fender and all the mud caked over the outside. But it
drives great and still does the job. In most respects it is better than a
new 2005 pick-up of any make (at least based on my attempts to find a
replacement last year). My Mom's 2000 Grand Marquis is like new too. Paint
is just fine, interior looks great, runs great, etc., etc. My Dad's 1999
Ranger is like new too - well except for the front air deflector my kids
tore off driving it through a ditch. It has need a repair thought - I had to
clean the IAC this year. The fact that you have had good luck with Toyota
only proves you have had good luck with Toyotas. I want more. I assume there
are statistic available to the industry that might be enlightening. I am
thinking of vehicle registration statistics, spare parts sales, etc. I do
know that within five miles of my house, there are four independent shops
that specialize in Japanese cars and only one that claims to be "general."
Where do all the "American" car owners get their cars fixed? I know where to
take my Sister's Honda (to get the timing belt replaced). I have no idea
where to take my Ford (but then I have never needed to).

Ed

#23

That's good that you've had a good experience with them. But I don't
think resale value is meaningless. It may be a lagging indicator if
recent US quality has improved, but it's still what the market says.
Why would people assume Japanese is better quality if it isn't so? How
could they all be wrong?

#24

Same is true when one goes to an old car show. Lots of domestic and
European sedans from the sixties seventies and eighties, when Japanese cars
sold well in the US, but one never if ever sees a Japanese car from that era
except a 'Z' car or RX7 on occasion. The so called superiority of Japanese
vehicles in more myth than fact. In the fleet service that I once owned we
serviced thousands of vehicles monthly, from just about any brand you can
name, for fleets that generally kept their vehicle in service for five years
or 300K WOF. Japanese vehicles in general did no better on average that any
others. The biggest problem with Japanese cars is the extraordinarily
higher repair costs vs. domestic, when they need to repaired. They all will
need to be repaired over the long term at which corporate fleets keep their
vehicles. Whenever one hears somebody comparing their newer Toyota to the
pieced of crap brand 'X' they used to own, it is generally one that was
built 15 years ago or so. Japanese car of 15 years ago were not as good as
what is sold today either. If one looks at the way CR and Powers rates
vehicles the do so as a list from best to worse. In reality, if you look
at the same list in percentages, EVERY manufacture making some that have a
failure rate between 2% and 2 1/2%. What they are really saying is every
manufacture builds vehicles, that the consumer can buy, that has a 97 1/2%
to 98% chance of being a great reliable vehicle. The only real difference
among vehicles today is style and price

mike hunt

"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"High Tech Misfit" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:13q5h4mbf62n$.dlg (AT) hightech (DOT) misfit...

GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a
minimum
of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly
believe
that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their
reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair
gap
in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term.

I would love for you or someone to prove that this assertion is true. My
day
job is at a plant with thousands of cars in the parking lot. I'll bet
there
are not 5 Toyotas more than 10 years old in the lots on any given day
(versus 100s of newer ones). There are many old US cars in the lots. I
know
this is non-scientific, but I just don't see the number of old Japanese
cars
that the claims of "super" reliability suggest there should be. Over the
last 30 years my family, close friends, and myself have owned a large
selection of cars from most major manufacturers. Nothing in our collective
personal experience indicates that Japanese cars in general are
particularly
reliable or long lasting (assuming similar treatment and maintenance). In
fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Again, non-scientific, but anytime
someone makes the claim that Japanese cars are super reliable and last
forever, I just have to ask myself how come I don't personally know of
even
one that is so great. My SO drove a Camry wagon to 250,000 miles, but it
was
a POS when she finally dumped it. She has now driven a Plymouth mini-van
to
similar mileage, and it is in far better shape than the Camry was at the
same stage of it's life (not that it is great). I have personally owned
Mazdas, Datsuns, and Toyotas and none have been all that reliable. And I
noticed that even the Lexus dealer has a service department full of broken
cars.

I just want someone to show me some proof that Japanese cars are sooooo
much
better than GM cars (or Fords for that matter). Until I see some sort of
proof (and I don't mean the Consumer Reports or JD Powers popularity
contests) I am just going to mark the legend of Japanese auto quality as
advertising driven hype.

Ed

#25

A million others can say the same about their brand 'X' as well. Apparently
the only buyers in the US that believe Toyota are worth the cost of
ownership, in the real world, are Toyota owners.. If not, everyone would own
Toyotas and in the real world where people spend their hard earned money to
buy their vehicles, Toyota is a distant third in sales behind GM and Ford

mike hunt

"Scott in Florida" <JustAsk (AT) Florida (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:26:03 -0400, "C. E. White"
cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote:

"High Tech Misfit" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:13q5h4mbf62n$.dlg (AT) hightech (DOT) misfit...

GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a
minimum
of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly
believe
that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their
reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair
gap
in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term.

I would love for you or someone to prove that this assertion is true. My
day
job is at a plant with thousands of cars in the parking lot. I'll bet
there
are not 5 Toyotas more than 10 years old in the lots on any given day
(versus 100s of newer ones). There are many old US cars in the lots. I
know
this is non-scientific, but I just don't see the number of old Japanese
cars
that the claims of "super" reliability suggest there should be. Over the
last 30 years my family, close friends, and myself have owned a large
selection of cars from most major manufacturers. Nothing in our collective
personal experience indicates that Japanese cars in general are
particularly
reliable or long lasting (assuming similar treatment and maintenance). In
fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Again, non-scientific, but anytime
someone makes the claim that Japanese cars are super reliable and last
forever, I just have to ask myself how come I don't personally know of
even
one that is so great. My SO drove a Camry wagon to 250,000 miles, but it
was
a POS when she finally dumped it. She has now driven a Plymouth mini-van
to
similar mileage, and it is in far better shape than the Camry was at the
same stage of it's life (not that it is great). I have personally owned
Mazdas, Datsuns, and Toyotas and none have been all that reliable. And I
noticed that even the Lexus dealer has a service department full of broken
cars.

I just want someone to show me some proof that Japanese cars are sooooo
much
better than GM cars (or Fords for that matter). Until I see some sort of
proof (and I don't mean the Consumer Reports or JD Powers popularity
contests) I am just going to mark the legend of Japanese auto quality as
advertising driven hype.

Ed

My scientific study in my driveway.....

2 older Toyotos

92 Corolla Wagon
97 Corolla Sedan

both are like new cars.

--

Scott in Florida

Still Voting Democratic?

You are Stuck On Stupid!

#26

Another Japanese car myth but a common misconception that one hears all the
time. As a percentage of the actual drive home price Japanese vehicles are
no better than domestics in retained value. In many cases not as good when
one considers the percentage retained of the original drive home price. A
two year old V6 Camry is indeed worth $4,000 more than a V6 Taurus according
to NADA, but the Camry cost at least $5,000 more to drive home when new. In
that example the Taurus returns a higher percentage of the origin price than
does the V6 Camry. If one compares wholesale prices of used domestic vs.
Japanese cars you will see it is the car dealers that are making a greater
mark up on Japanese higher retail prices but not offering a proportionally
higher trade price, even on the same brand.

mike hunt

"st-bum" <kennykabuki (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

What about resale value? That's the market telling you a Honda or
Toyota is worth a much higher % of original value than a GM or Ford.

I've seen 5 year old Hondas with 100K miles for sale for 10.5K (US $).
That's about 1/2 original price. Somehow the market thinks they hold
their value.

#27

I'll bet you paid a lot more money to drive home that Toyota van than a
comparable Dodge van as well

mike hunt

".dbu." <foolishlefties (AT) Zapem (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

In article <1129754754.378612.42550 (AT) g47g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
"st-bum" <kennykabuki (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

What about resale value? That's the market telling you a Honda or
Toyota is worth a much higher % of original value than a GM or Ford.

I've seen 5 year old Hondas with 100K miles for sale for 10.5K (US $).
That's about 1/2 original price. Somehow the market thinks they hold
their value.

I'll bet money that when my Toyota is ten years old I'll get more money
for it than I did for my ten year old Dodge Caravan.
--

#28

We ran across owner like that all the time, when I was in retail. "That has
been the best car I ever owned, 220K its like new" We would ask "Did it
burn and leak oil, rattle, have all that rust, need struts and tires and
have that tranny slip and bad rotors when it was new?" You should have
taken it back the nest day if it did LOL

mike hunt

"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

"Scott in Florida" <JustAsk (AT) Florida (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:06bdl1hmm9h5f6sg81fho8qhl3ns2p3iuu (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
My scientific study in my driveway.....

2 older Toyotos

92 Corolla Wagon
97 Corolla Sedan

both are like new cars.

Like a new '92 Toyota, or a new '05 Toyota? And what does "like new" mean
anyhow? My 14 year old F150 is like new in most respects - except for the
dent in the right fender and all the mud caked over the outside. But it
drives great and still does the job. In most respects it is better than a
new 2005 pick-up of any make (at least based on my attempts to find a
replacement last year). My Mom's 2000 Grand Marquis is like new too. Paint
is just fine, interior looks great, runs great, etc., etc. My Dad's 1999
Ranger is like new too - well except for the front air deflector my kids
tore off driving it through a ditch. It has need a repair thought - I had
to clean the IAC this year. The fact that you have had good luck with
Toyota only proves you have had good luck with Toyotas. I want more. I
assume there are statistic available to the industry that might be
enlightening. I am thinking of vehicle registration statistics, spare
parts sales, etc. I do know that within five miles of my house, there are
four independent shops that specialize in Japanese cars and only one that
claims to be "general." Where do all the "American" car owners get their
cars fixed? I know where to take my Sister's Honda (to get the timing belt
replaced). I have no idea where to take my Ford (but then I have never
needed to).

Ed

#29

Hate to ask a question of a questioner but if what you say were actually
true, why does everybody not believe that and buy Toyotas? GM, Ford and
even Chrysler outsell Toyota and Honda. The market say THOSE buyers must
not believe what you believe.

mike hunt

"st-bum" <kennykabuki (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

That's good that you've had a good experience with them. But I don't
think resale value is meaningless. It may be a lagging indicator if
recent US quality has improved, but it's still what the market says.
Why would people assume Japanese is better quality if it isn't so? How
could they all be wrong?

#30

Mike Hunter, 10/19/2005,8:58:47 PM, wrote:

Quote:

Did you speak to any of the many former Japanese buyers, that have
traded all those Japanese cars at GM, Ford or Chrysler dealers, to
get their opinion as well?

Like I said in my previous post, "every Toyota and Honda owner I have
met." I haven't actually gone to the dealers and interviewed anyone
who was trading in their Toyota. Besides if they actually were doing
that then I suspect they either got an incredible deal that they
couldn't turn down or they had a lemon.

I'm not going to argue too much with you about the value and the
quality of new cars today. But I will contend that those of us who buy
used cars will almost always get a more reliable and solid car when we
buy a Toyota or Honda rather than Chevy, Ford, or Dodge.

--
"The only time my prayers are never answered is on the golf course." --
Billy Graham

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Re: no wonder the US auto industry is dying

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