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Re: no wonder the US auto industry is dying
Toyota Discussions related to Toyota cars and trucks (alt.autos.toyota)
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#31
 
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Re: no wonder the US auto industry is dying -
10-19-2005
, 10:18 PM
#32
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On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:26:03 -0400, "C. E. White" cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote: "High Tech Misfit" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message news:13q5h4mbf62n$.dlg (AT) hightech (DOT) misfit... GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a minimum of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly believe that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair gap in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term. I would love for you or someone to prove that this assertion is true. My day job is at a plant with thousands of cars in the parking lot. I'll bet there are not 5 Toyotas more than 10 years old in the lots on any given day (versus 100s of newer ones). There are many old US cars in the lots. I know this is non-scientific, but I just don't see the number of old Japanese cars that the claims of "super" reliability suggest there should be. Over the last 30 years my family, close friends, and myself have owned a large selection of cars from most major manufacturers. Nothing in our collective personal experience indicates that Japanese cars in general are particularly reliable or long lasting (assuming similar treatment and maintenance). In fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Again, non-scientific, but anytime someone makes the claim that Japanese cars are super reliable and last forever, I just have to ask myself how come I don't personally know of even one that is so great. My SO drove a Camry wagon to 250,000 miles, but it was a POS when she finally dumped it. She has now driven a Plymouth mini-van to similar mileage, and it is in far better shape than the Camry was at the same stage of it's life (not that it is great). I have personally owned Mazdas, Datsuns, and Toyotas and none have been all that reliable. And I noticed that even the Lexus dealer has a service department full of broken cars. I just want someone to show me some proof that Japanese cars are sooooo much better than GM cars (or Fords for that matter). Until I see some sort of proof (and I don't mean the Consumer Reports or JD Powers popularity contests) I am just going to mark the legend of Japanese auto quality as advertising driven hype. Ed My scientific study in my driveway..... 2 older Toyotos 92 Corolla Wagon 97 Corolla Sedan both are like new cars. -- Scott in Florida Still Voting Democratic? You are Stuck On Stupid! |
63 Chevy II 63,000 miles sold
62 Corvair 92,000 miles scrapped
72 Carina 154,000 miles scrapped
77 Corolla 207,000 miles scrapped
79 Corolla 106,000 miles sold
80 Corolla 75,000 miles (hit a bridge) scraped
80 Corolla 200,000 miles scrapped
81 Corolla 105,000 miles sold
82 Corolla 213,000 miles sold
93 Corolla 207,000 miles
94 Corolla 100,000+ miles
95 Corolla 100,000+ miles
95 Previa 140,000+ miles
Charles
#33
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#34
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#35
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"Maybe it's because they have been influenced by the exorbitant amount of advertising by the Big Three" I don't know where you live, but around here nobody runs more ads than Toyota. The Toyota truck ads (particualrly Tacoma ads) are just plain stupid. And the car ads are mystifying (what does "moving forward" mean). And I swear Toyotathon is a year round event. In addition to the national ads, we have three local dealers that seem to run commercials continuously - each spewing more BS than the lat. After listening to the truck ads last year, I took a run at buying a Tundra. The ads were pure lies. They may have had one somewhere at the price they claimed, but they never seemed to be able to find it. Ed |
commercials than anything else now them maybe that is why Toyotas are
starting to sell better. It probably won't be long before Honda gets
into the marketing business also.
--
"You've just one problem. You stand too close to the ball after you've
hit it." -- Sam Snead
#36
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Same is true when one goes to an old car show. Lots of domestic and European sedans from the sixties seventies and eighties, when Japanese cars sold well in the US, but one never if ever sees a Japanese car from that era except a 'Z' car or RX7 on occasion. The so called superiority of Japanese vehicles in more myth than fact. In the fleet service that I once owned we serviced thousands of vehicles monthly, from just about any brand you can name, for fleets that generally kept their vehicle in service for five years or 300K WOF. Japanese vehicles in general did no better on average that any others. The biggest problem with Japanese cars is the extraordinarily higher repair costs vs. domestic, when they need to repaired. They all will need to be repaired over the long term at which corporate fleets keep their vehicles. Whenever one hears somebody comparing their newer Toyota to the pieced of crap brand 'X' they used to own, it is generally one that was built 15 years ago or so. Japanese car of 15 years ago were not as good as what is sold today either. If one looks at the way CR and Powers rates vehicles the do so as a list from best to worse. In reality, if you look at the same list in percentages, EVERY manufacture making some that have a failure rate between 2% and 2 1/2%. What they are really saying is every manufacture builds vehicles, that the consumer can buy, that has a 97 1/2% to 98% chance of being a great reliable vehicle. The only real difference among vehicles today is style and price |
values so much higher for Toyotas and Hondas? Market dictates a lot. A
Toyota will be trouble free much longer than comparable GM or Ford. Also -
let's not forget the most obvious. When you compare two similar cars from GM
and Toyota, the GM has more overhead that is amortized in each car. This
means cheaper parts, which means worse reliability.
#37
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"High Tech Misfit" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message news:13q5h4mbf62n$.dlg (AT) hightech (DOT) misfit... GM also needs to build cars that will last as long as Toyotas with a minimum of non-routine problems. Ditto for Ford and Crapsler. I honestly believe that this is why the big 3 are gradually losing market share. Their reliability may have improved over the years, but there is still a fair gap in the differences in reliability, especially over the long term. I would love for you or someone to prove that this assertion is true. My day job is at a plant with thousands of cars in the parking lot. I'll bet there are not 5 Toyotas more than 10 years old in the lots on any given day (versus 100s of newer ones). There are many old US cars in the lots. I know this is non-scientific, but I just don't see the number of old Japanese cars that the claims of "super" reliability suggest there should be. Over the last 30 years my family, close friends, and myself have owned a large selection of cars from most major manufacturers. Nothing in our collective personal experience indicates that Japanese cars in general are particularly reliable or long lasting (assuming similar treatment and maintenance). In fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Again, non-scientific, but anytime someone makes the claim that Japanese cars are super reliable and last forever, I just have to ask myself how come I don't personally know of even one that is so great. My SO drove a Camry wagon to 250,000 miles, but it was a POS when she finally dumped it. She has now driven a Plymouth mini-van to similar mileage, and it is in far better shape than the Camry was at the same stage of it's life (not that it is great). I have personally owned Mazdas, Datsuns, and Toyotas and none have been all that reliable. And I noticed that even the Lexus dealer has a service department full of broken cars. I just want someone to show me some proof that Japanese cars are sooooo much better than GM cars (or Fords for that matter). Until I see some sort of proof (and I don't mean the Consumer Reports or JD Powers popularity contests) I am just going to mark the legend of Japanese auto quality as advertising driven hype. Ed |
Lexus looks like its brand new, and feels like it too. If you saw it on the
street, you would think its maybe 2-3 years old.
#38
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A million others can say the same about their brand 'X' as well. Apparently the only buyers in the US that believe Toyota are worth the cost of ownership, in the real world, are Toyota owners.. If not, everyone would own Toyotas and in the real world where people spend their hard earned money to buy their vehicles, Toyota is a distant third in sales behind GM and Ford  mike hunt |
moving on up....
#39
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Mike Hunter, 10/19/2005,8:58:47 PM, wrote: Did you speak to any of the many former Japanese buyers, that have traded all those Japanese cars at GM, Ford or Chrysler dealers, to get their opinion as well? Like I said in my previous post, "every Toyota and Honda owner I have met." I haven't actually gone to the dealers and interviewed anyone who was trading in their Toyota. Besides if they actually were doing that then I suspect they either got an incredible deal that they couldn't turn down or they had a lemon. I'm not going to argue too much with you about the value and the quality of new cars today. But I will contend that those of us who buy used cars will almost always get a more reliable and solid car when we buy a Toyota or Honda rather than Chevy, Ford, or Dodge. -- "The only time my prayers are never answered is on the golf course." -- Billy Graham |
#40
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Maybe they want to buy American. Maybe they are cheaper up front. Maybe they buy out of habit. The trend has been going Japanese, that's for sure. They started from nothing. If GM after 3 years is worth 1/2 original value and Toyota is worth 70%, that's saying something. That says that GM's car is half way done or will need alot of maintenance...alot more than the Toyota. The difference is stark. It isn't all hype. |
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