Dan J.S., 10/17/2005, 2:51:34 PM, <11l7slmsgs7li57 (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com>
wrote:

[snipped]

Unions at their best... Unbelievable.

--
"Golf is like an 18-year-old girl with big boobs. You know it's wrong
but you can't keep away from her." -- Val Doonican

We cannot generalize about unions. They are a necessary evil. Without a
union, you get fired if the boss hates your guts. So, some protection is not
a bad thing.
When protection takes a form of welfare, though, it's another story.
Is it fear of strikes that pushed GM to give hugely generous benefits to its
workers? If they don't
reverse the tide, they will sink.
$31.00 an hour to work on building cars bought by many people who make less
than a third is, IMHO, a bit immoral. But, hey, we believe in capitalism,
don't we!!! They say it's the best system in the world. It's far from
perfect.
It's hard to justify paying so much for a car. You loose half of its value
in the blink of an eye, even if you still owe 2 thirds to the bank and if
you are going to pay many more hundreds of dollars in repair.
A friend of mine used to own a Ford dealership. He went to a dealers
meetings where the Ford people asked them if they'd like a car that would be
better build and would last 20 years without major problems. They voted NO.
So, they could build better cars if they wanted to.
Is it any wonder that so many people buy Japanese cars? Dollar for dollar,
my perception is that they are build better. Case in point: 2 years ago, my
son was hit by a guy who forgot to make a stop. My 93 Camry went to the
bodyshop for 3 days and I had the pleasure to drive a brand new Alero. I kid
you not. My Camry with 250,000 kilometers drove 100 times better than the
brand spankinbg new GM car.
I'm convinced. ;-)

This sounds typical. In the 60's, here in No California, I belonged
to Operating Engineers Union. I was gradesetting (setting guide
stakes for equipment to get the slopes/grades right). The union had a
classification for "Journeyman trainee". Purpose was (supposedly)
improve the skills levels. Most of the time they sat on cutslope
watching. When I tried to get one of them to work with me (I got same
pay as operators) to learn my field, there was all kinds of excuses
from the boss (let the SOB sit), the worker (its to hot, can't walk
that much in my cowboy boots, no shade) (equipment all had
shades/umbrellas).

And my favorite one from the union Business Agent "its to complicated
to expect them to know/learn any math".

Ah the good old days!


But I made good money cause of it!

Ron

Why blame the union. Blame company management who signed the deal. Of
course they are all retired now with millions of bucks in the bank.


"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote

Art, 10/17/2005, 6:12:37 PM,
<plV4f.17713$q1.17423 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net> wrote:

Good point. They are the ones who gave into the demands.

--
"Golf is like an 18-year-old girl with big boobs. You know it's wrong
but you can't keep away from her." -- Val Doonican

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in
news:xn0e8lsbtizacu005 (AT) news (DOT) readfreenews.net:



Yes, but somebody had to agree to it, and that means management. Either
they toadied to the unions asa form of appeasement, were browbeaten by
various governments, or were so eager to avoid a destructive strike that
they signed their souls away to the union goons.

I like unions, strangely enough, but ONLY if they cannot use thuggery to
achieve their aims. Unfortunately, thuggery is all they know the way things
are set up these days.

--
TeGGeR®

In article <xn0e8lsbtizacu005 (AT) news (DOT) readfreenews.net>,
"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Unions? It was management who made the deal.

Merritt

Sounds like a mangment problem not a union problem.

mike hunt


"ron" <really good (AT) serviceu (DOT) com> wrote

"Merritt Mullen" <mmullen8014 (AT) mchsi (DOT) com> wrote

In the not to distant past what choice did GM have. The UAW had organized
all the US vehicle producers. The UAW only threatened to strike one
manufacturer at a time. If you were GM management, and the Union said give
us X, or we will strike you and let Ford and Chrysler keep producing what
would you do? You are going to loose sales permanently when Customers can't
get your cars and turns to your competitors. Plus the UAW made it clear,
whatever deal you made, they would force Ford and Chrysler to accept similar
deals. As long as the UAW could force all manufacturers to accept the same
deal, no one manufacturer was likely to hold out and cripple themselves.
Unfortunately for GM the world has changed. GM now has to compete with many
more companies, some with non-union workers. The past sweetheart deals with
the UAW are now killing GM. I suppose you can blame GMs management for not
foreseeing the future, but I can't see how a CEO could set by and let the
UAW shut them down for months while the competitors cranked cars out as fast
as they could. The UAW does not have the same power over the foreign brands.
Even for foreign brands, like Honda, that have Union shops, threats from the
UAW are not as scary. If the UAW struck Honda, they would just shift
production to overseas factories. They might not be able to keep the supply
lines as full as they would like, but at least they would have something to
sell.

I really only see three ways to fix the problem -

1) Have the US government take over health care - politically impossible
2) Prevent Unions from monopolizing an industry - politically impossible
3) Allow US manufacturers to create an industry wide block to negotiate with
the Union (if one manufacturer is struck, they all shut down) - at least in
the past this was illegal (although it seems coal mine operators and railway
operators do exactly this).
4) Let GM go belly up - who will you guys work for when all the US
manufacturers are out of business?

On a positive note, it is only a matter of time before the Chinese destroy
the Japanese car industry.I suppose the Japanese will continue to protect
their domestic market (which we aren't willing to do), but sooner or later
the low labor cost of non-union Chinese workers will overwhelm the Japanese
in all open markets (i.e., mostly the US and the under-developed world).

Ed

A quick search will show Toyota is building vehicle assembly and parts
plants in China and Mexico to sell in the US.


mike hunt


"C. E. White" <cewhite3 (AT) removemindspring (DOT) com> wrote