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CIS and low compression...
Volkswagen Golf, Jetta, Corrado, Vanagon, new models, etc. (rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled)
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#11
 
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Re: CIS UPDATE -
11-02-2009
, 10:10 AM
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I was going to say that you need to start with the basics. Make sure the timing belt is correct. I have seen sooo many that were many notches off including my 1.8t engine when I bought it. Oh and it had good compression (150 psi) even for a low compression engine that was 4 notches off. Yes the engine could run but might not run at full power or might be hard to start. Your compression, especially with Hyd Lifters, might be low until the lifters pump up and the engine is warm. THEN check the spark timing. CIS usually needs that cold start valve to spray a little fuel inside the intake manifold to make starting easier. Glad you got it started! ;-) Check out the main battery cable going to the starter and the main negative cable to the engine. I suggest taking them off and cleaning all surfaces. JMHO -- later, (One out of many daves) "In2hoppn" <in2hoppn (AT) worldpath (DOT) net> wrote in message news:B4qdnb27NM8WvXvXnZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d (AT) metrocastcablevision (DOT) com... I think hydrolic lifters play a role... I did finally get it running. Had to pull it up the street. Runs good, too. But still won't start by starter. It's just not cranking fast enough. The starter is just plain cooked and drawing way too much current. It's cranking like about 1/2 speed... although my 83 will start at that speed if battery is half dead (like after sitting all winter). So apparently it's a combination of slow starter and hard starting from the typical fuel ratio not ideal yet cis syndrome : ) I'm betting compression has come up after running it and building some oil pressure, but never did check it again. It had a coolant leak as well, so for all I know it's been cooked a bit... maybe valve springs are weak now? I don't know, but it didn't want to idle and I didn't dare let it run too long with the coolant leaking (hose off end of head) so I didn't do anymore tinkering. But I did drive it around the yard and out back and it runs smooth and strong... and I at least know now that the clutch is good, as well as 1st, 2nd, and reverse gears... yard too small for 3rd, 4th, and 5th : ) "SFC" <sf-cillari (AT) hetnet (DOT) nl> wrote in message news:4ae5ee74$0$1655$703f8584 (AT) textnews (DOT) kpn.nl... If you realy measured "only" 55psi then it must be leaking through the valves. Normal value is between 140...180psi! Acc to vw it is due for overhaul when it is dropped to about 105psi! You'll never get it started with almost no compression.... First check what the cause is for that low cyl. pressure! If the oil trick didn't make a difference then it must be bad valves or a very bad head gasket (unlikely) SFC |
#12
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Hey all, Just a brief update. Got a battery charger with a good boost for cranking and was able to start it by the starter! Then tracked down the no frequency valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again! That gave me the old frequency valve buzz it needed. Then vantage meter on the cold start valve showed that to be working. Fired her up again, and it was pretty rough from being way to rich... had to back off the idle mixture screw a LONG WAY and then open the idle screw up and she purrs like a kitten and responds to throttle snap beautifully. I had set the mixture screw up higher at an earlier time, but not by THAT much. Next is to investigate O2 sensor (probably just pop a new one in unless it looks pretty new) and check out the dwell on that frequency valve. But first I got to replace the radiator... didn't dare run it any longer without coolant... don't particularily want to end up replacing the waterpump as it has no rad in it now. Radiator is supposed to be in today. Looking like it will be a driver soon!!!!!!!! In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) |
#13
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I can see the smile from here! lol congrats and keep us updated! "In2hoppn" <in2hoppn (AT) worldpath (DOT) net> wrote in message news:Wvadncci6snsa3PXnZ2dnUVZ_h8AAAAA (AT) metrocastcablevision (DOT) com... Hey all, Just a brief update. Got a battery charger with a good boost for cranking and was able to start it by the starter! Then tracked down the no frequency valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again! |
number of relays I've opened, cleaned, burnished the contacts on, and
reassembled!
Keep us posted on how you are doing once on the road!
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That gave me the old frequency valve buzz it needed. Then vantage meter on the cold start valve showed that to be working. Fired her up again, and it was pretty rough from being way to rich... had to back off the idle mixture screw a LONG WAY and then open the idle screw up and she purrs like a kitten and responds to throttle snap beautifully. I had set the mixture screw up higher at an earlier time, but not by THAT much. Next is to investigate O2 sensor (probably just pop a new one in unless it looks pretty new) and check out the dwell on that frequency valve. But first I got to replace the radiator... didn't dare run it any longer without coolant... don't particularily want to end up replacing the waterpump as it has no rad in it now. Radiator is supposed to be in today. Looking like it will be a driver soon!!!!!!!! In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) |
#14
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:34:19 -0600, "dave AKA vwdoc1" vwdoc1nospam (AT) pleasehotmail (DOT) com> wrote: I can see the smile from here! lol congrats and keep us updated! "In2hoppn" <in2hoppn (AT) worldpath (DOT) net> wrote in message news:Wvadncci6snsa3PXnZ2dnUVZ_h8AAAAA (AT) metrocastcablevision (DOT) com... Hey all, Just a brief update. Got a battery charger with a good boost for cranking and was able to start it by the starter! Then tracked down the no frequency valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again! I don't know why VW's are prone to do this. I've lost count of the number of relays I've opened, cleaned, burnished the contacts on, and reassembled! Keep us posted on how you are doing once on the road! That gave me the old frequency valve buzz it needed. Then vantage meter on the cold start valve showed that to be working. Fired her up again, and it was pretty rough from being way to rich... had to back off the idle mixture screw a LONG WAY and then open the idle screw up and she purrs like a kitten and responds to throttle snap beautifully. I had set the mixture screw up higher at an earlier time, but not by THAT much. Next is to investigate O2 sensor (probably just pop a new one in unless it looks pretty new) and check out the dwell on that frequency valve. But first I got to replace the radiator... didn't dare run it any longer without coolant... don't particularily want to end up replacing the waterpump as it has no rad in it now. Radiator is supposed to be in today. Looking like it will be a driver soon!!!!!!!! In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) |
#15
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Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME that I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and running plus retrieving all my old data before clunking out the old one... left me with no news group access until now. "I will never buy another VW" "I will never work on another VW" "I hate fricken VW" ...wonder how many time I said that today... along with the colorful language I can't seem to give up... ... but I'm finally smiling again! Man, talk about getting wound up aggravated to the limit! Got some injector seal in her and replaced a cracked coolant flange. Well it started OK to drive in from out back and do that, but then it wouldn't start again! So I pull the plugs and clean and dry them, then it starts but doesn't want to idle. Then won't start again. Well finally get it running and idling again, and trying to get the ignition timing set and set the idle mixture and of course the idle speed, and how all these things can affect one another... and just when I finally think I've got it about right and the dwell meter is looking good but doesn't like the O2 sensor very much so I leave it unhooked... it starts idling way down again... THEN... coolant starts pumping out from under the cap and making a mess all over the place because the radiator fan ain't working! So, I get's that mess all cleaned up and then, of course, it won't fricken start again! Soooooo, I go to my favorite parts place for a starter (25 minute drive to get there) to discover they don't really have one there. But the store up the highway (another 1/2 hour or so away) "has one for sure". Get there, open the box... starter doesn't even look close... never even seen a starter quite like it on anything. So the guy insists it's the right one (LOL)... then suggests it's a "late model" in that year and looks at a year newer (I'm still laughin out loud, but it ain't funny) and tell him this isn't even a vw starter. Then I look at the number on the box (that he keeps saying is right) and see the number on the starter is different... wrong starter in the box. So off I go for another 1/2 hour drive to another store. Finally... the right starter... and after enough driving... get it home and installed... tripple square bolt heads that have been abused before (yup, was really luvin VW again) but.............. TA DA! It's spins a lot faster and for a lot longer! And it starts! Even without battery charger w/boost! Yeee Haaa! NOW... anybody got a good wiring diagram for the radiator fan in this rig? It's 1987 Cabriolet, and it has 2 wire fan, AND 2 wire connector on the radiator temp sensor. I had to swap the fan motor out when I changed the radiator. Wires had been spliced previously. Currently, both leads to radiator fan show continuity to ground so somethings wired wrong. Mitchell is useless for this car and my Bentley and Haynes only go to 1984. Looking at a variety of years in Mitchell shows double relays for a couple different multi-speed fan setups... both showing 3 prong temp sensor in radiator (mine has only 2). Another schematic shows circuit from fuse 1 to radiator temp sensor to fan to ground... no relay involved. I know the earlier ones had a relay for fan that was switched by the radiator sensor and would think this has a relay like that??????? Thanks if anyone can find a schematic that makes sense for this one! Maybe a relay panel diagram, too?? Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... |
#16
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Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME that I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and running plus retrieving all my old data before clunking out the old one... left me with no news group access until now. "I will never buy another VW" "I will never work on another VW" "I hate fricken VW" ...wonder how many time I said that today... along with the colorful language I can't seem to give up... ... but I'm finally smiling again! Man, talk about getting wound up aggravated to the limit! Got some injector seal in her and replaced a cracked coolant flange. Well it started OK to drive in from out back and do that, but then it wouldn't start again! So I pull the plugs and clean and dry them, then it starts but doesn't want to idle. Then won't start again. Well finally get it running and idling again, and trying to get the ignition timing set and set the idle mixture and of course the idle speed, and how all these things can affect one another... and just when I finally think I've got it about right and the dwell meter is looking good but doesn't like the O2 sensor very much so I leave it unhooked... it starts idling way down again... THEN... coolant starts pumping out from under the cap and making a mess all over the place because the radiator fan ain't working! So, I get's that mess all cleaned up and then, of course, it won't fricken start again! Soooooo, I go to my favorite parts place for a starter (25 minute drive to get there) to discover they don't really have one there. But the store up the highway (another 1/2 hour or so away) "has one for sure". Get there, open the box... starter doesn't even look close... never even seen a starter quite like it on anything. So the guy insists it's the right one (LOL)... then suggests it's a "late model" in that year and looks at a year newer (I'm still laughin out loud, but it ain't funny) and tell him this isn't even a vw starter. Then I look at the number on the box (that he keeps saying is right) and see the number on the starter is different... wrong starter in the box. So off I go for another 1/2 hour drive to another store. Finally... the right starter... and after enough driving... get it home and installed... tripple square bolt heads that have been abused before (yup, was really luvin VW again) but.............. TA DA! It's spins a lot faster and for a lot longer! And it starts! Even without battery charger w/boost! Yeee Haaa! NOW... anybody got a good wiring diagram for the radiator fan in this rig? It's 1987 Cabriolet, and it has 2 wire fan, AND 2 wire connector on the radiator temp sensor. I had to swap the fan motor out when I changed the radiator. Wires had been spliced previously. Currently, both leads to radiator fan show continuity to ground so somethings wired wrong. Mitchell is useless for this car and my Bentley and Haynes only go to 1984. Looking at a variety of years in Mitchell shows double relays for a couple different multi-speed fan setups... both showing 3 prong temp sensor in radiator (mine has only 2). Another schematic shows circuit from fuse 1 to radiator temp sensor to fan to ground... no relay involved. I know the earlier ones had a relay for fan that was switched by the radiator sensor and would think this has a relay like that??????? Thanks if anyone can find a schematic that makes sense for this one! Maybe a relay panel diagram, too?? Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... |
if I can scan the fan electric page for you.
I'll need an email address to send it to you, so obfuscate yours and
post it. (Don't email to my address in the forum, it's a dummy).
If you can't do that we'll figure out another way to get it to you.
#17
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:19:49 -0500, "In2hoppn" <nobody (AT) nowhere (DOT) com wrote: Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME that I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and running plus retrieving all my old data before clunking out the old one... left me with no news group access until now. "I will never buy another VW" "I will never work on another VW" "I hate fricken VW" ...wonder how many time I said that today... along with the colorful language I can't seem to give up... ... but I'm finally smiling again! Man, talk about getting wound up aggravated to the limit! Got some injector seal in her and replaced a cracked coolant flange. Well it started OK to drive in from out back and do that, but then it wouldn't start again! So I pull the plugs and clean and dry them, then it starts but doesn't want to idle. Then won't start again. Well finally get it running and idling again, and trying to get the ignition timing set and set the idle mixture and of course the idle speed, and how all these things can affect one another... and just when I finally think I've got it about right and the dwell meter is looking good but doesn't like the O2 sensor very much so I leave it unhooked... it starts idling way down again... THEN... coolant starts pumping out from under the cap and making a mess all over the place because the radiator fan ain't working! So, I get's that mess all cleaned up and then, of course, it won't fricken start again! Soooooo, I go to my favorite parts place for a starter (25 minute drive to get there) to discover they don't really have one there. But the store up the highway (another 1/2 hour or so away) "has one for sure". Get there, open the box... starter doesn't even look close... never even seen a starter quite like it on anything. So the guy insists it's the right one (LOL)... then suggests it's a "late model" in that year and looks at a year newer (I'm still laughin out loud, but it ain't funny) and tell him this isn't even a vw starter. Then I look at the number on the box (that he keeps saying is right) and see the number on the starter is different... wrong starter in the box. So off I go for another 1/2 hour drive to another store. Finally... the right starter... and after enough driving... get it home and installed... tripple square bolt heads that have been abused before (yup, was really luvin VW again) but.............. TA DA! It's spins a lot faster and for a lot longer! And it starts! Even without battery charger w/boost! Yeee Haaa! NOW... anybody got a good wiring diagram for the radiator fan in this rig? It's 1987 Cabriolet, and it has 2 wire fan, AND 2 wire connector on the radiator temp sensor. I had to swap the fan motor out when I changed the radiator. Wires had been spliced previously. Currently, both leads to radiator fan show continuity to ground so somethings wired wrong. Mitchell is useless for this car and my Bentley and Haynes only go to 1984. Looking at a variety of years in Mitchell shows double relays for a couple different multi-speed fan setups... both showing 3 prong temp sensor in radiator (mine has only 2). Another schematic shows circuit from fuse 1 to radiator temp sensor to fan to ground... no relay involved. I know the earlier ones had a relay for fan that was switched by the radiator sensor and would think this has a relay like that??????? Thanks if anyone can find a schematic that makes sense for this one! Maybe a relay panel diagram, too?? Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... I have the Bentley for the '88 cab, which IIRC is the same. I'll see if I can scan the fan electric page for you. I'll need an email address to send it to you, so obfuscate yours and post it. (Don't email to my address in the forum, it's a dummy). If you can't do that we'll figure out another way to get it to you. |
So to totally obfuscate beyond de-obfuscation... it's me as you see me
posted here and my provider is metrocast.
Wouldn't mind the whole electrical schematic if you can, relay location if
you got it... don't need any of the troubleshoot or r&r stuff!
Thanks!
#18
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#19
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quotes and comments below... No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to drop the transmission out of the vehicle. Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : ) |
clutch change.
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Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not broken and are still attached! Yeah, that would be nice if I was just spinning an axle or inboard flange... but I think that would be more than the syncs could handle, as I can shift 3rd, 4th, and 5th pretty quickly with out all that much resistance. But there is some resistance (that pushing the clutch in eliminates), and if I slowly add pressure the engine idle speed will slow down, until it drops into gear. Then when in gear, the is no change in idle speed. I'm picturing the shaft turning inside the gears and holding pressure on the syncros putting a sideways load on it adding to the otherwise only slightest friction there... as in clutch OK, trans not. I supposed I better get my head under there and look at the drive flanges, but I'm quite certain it's not spinning diff. I've been looking at exploded view in Bentley (84 4 speeds) but it's really not that clear how it all works and what would let go the easiest... I'd say at most, the only thing turning besides the flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate (clutch pedal feels perfect still) and maybe trans main shaft only? |
If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly
engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans mainshaft
is not turning.
You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that
inspection hole at the top of the transmission.
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As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done. It's on CL for 600 in case someone locally is maybe into clutch jobs. If I had a hoist that I could occupy for a while, I'd love to pull it apart just to see what happened, THEN part and scrap it out if it needs more than just a clutch. But I just don't have the means. And yeah, quite a bit of stuff has to come apart and then drop the trans right out of it. Then, I could see the splines on the shaft and look inside the clutch disc (still on the engine behind/inside the flywheel). Hmmmmmmm.... wonder if I can jack it up out back... make some tall jack stands... about 6 foot tall...! HA! If I ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure to let you know what it was. |
which should help the sale of the car for the max price! ;-)
#20
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quotes and comments below... "In2hoppn" <nobody (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message news:So2dnaWuduSsM2PXnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d (AT) metrocastcablevision (DOT) com... quotes and comments below... No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to drop the transmission out of the vehicle. Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : ) Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy clutch change. |
alternator which is tight against the firewall...
(For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )
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